TOPIC: Terrain hindrances?

I can see a little of both ways here - often the dungeon is very chaotic, and it's not especially clear what saves / bonuses are relevant.

I would guess there is a pretty large percentage of players who would never ask the DM things like:

• Is that a charm effect?
• Is that a gaze attack?
• Is that cold damage?

Because they assume either that this information has already been accounted for (e.g. they showed their Helm of Dark Visage in the coaching room), or because they assume the DM would tell them if it might be relevant.

I would like DM's to be more proactive in announcing these kinds of details, if they won't (which seems reasonable in the heat of the moment/chaos of combat), it would be nice if these kinds of conditional bonuses were included on the party card by the coaches.

I would say this goes double for current year conditional effects.

At the very least, maybe training room DMs could be put the players tokens in two piles and tell them:

"These tokens you can put away, they are recorded in your party card. These tokens convey conditional bonuses - be on the look out for opportunities to use them in the dungeon - if you think they might be relevant be sure to ask the room DM."

Coach do do that that I have seen...when they have time.

Matthew Hayward wrote: I would guess there is a pretty large percentage of players who would never ask the DM things like:

• Is that a charm effect?
• Is that a gaze attack?
• Is that cold damage?

I try to be explicit about this in Grind.

Because they assume either that this information has already been accounted for (e.g. they showed their Helm of Dark Visage in the coaching room), or because they assume the DM would tell them if it might be relevant.

I would like DM's to be more proactive in announcing these kinds of details, if they won't (which seems reasonable in the heat of the moment/chaos of combat), it would be nice if these kinds of conditional bonuses were included on the party card by the coaches.

I would say this goes double for current year conditional effects.

I agree with you.

But also think that when players have damage reduction or resistances, they should mention it. For example:

BAD:

DM: You take 6 damage from the Fire Ray spell.

Player: I have a Ruby Rhombus and a Faceted Amber.


GOOD:

DM: You take 6 damage from the Fire Ray spell.

Player: I have a Ruby Rhombus for -3 fire damage and a Faceted Amber for -2 magic damage. 6 - 5 is 1, so I take 1 damage.



As a DM, it is helpful to know these things because players sometimes do misapply the effects of their tokens (in the past players have sworn that the Supreme Ring works against acid) and because it is sometimes relevant information like if the monster keeps hitting a player for 10 damage and they aren't adjusting their HP (and not telling me), it looks awfully suspicious (but could be legitimate under certain circumstances).

Normally in Grind, when monsters use magic energy spells, I usually try to do the math out loud, and work with the player to get the correct end number.

Now that I have some applicable tokens i had been wondering a lot about this. I agree with Mathew about DMs announcing applicable damage types and styles and for the coaches to advise what I would need to keep handy (I did get this a bit last year). Also thank you Incognito for the example, I was wondering how the damage reduction was tracked.

I think the most stressful job in TD must be coaching.

As an IT guy, I think in terms of object-oriented design and separation of concerns. Asking over-worked coaches to note every little conditional effect isn't reasonable. They often don't know the dungeon so don't know what's applicable. And if they do know and only write the stuff that matters, they are effectively giving spoilers.

So now you have a party card with so many notes and scribbles on it that it overwhelms the DMs who don't need all that info. Poison applied to what, three rooms out of 14 last year? When people get overwhelmed they shut down, so you are going to have to point out your conditions go effects anyway.

I'm convinced that in the long run, writing a bunch of stuff on the card isn't going to solve any of the problems you're trying to fix. It will just make more work for coaches for no reason.

Plus, DMs are supposed to announce damage types and effects. It's part of their job. If they don't, the answer isn't for someone else to cover for them, but teach them to do it right. And as players, you can do that.

Here's another example to add to Eric's:

DM: You take 6 points of damage
You: What type? I have tokens that could reduce it.

Or
DM: The critter hits you. Make a fort saving throw
You: Against what? I have tokens that might give me a bonus (if you have a Mithral Plyramid or Amulet of Warding or Greyhawk or something)


Some DMs forget, and some get pressed into service with inadequate training. If you run into one who deals mystery damage, help train them on the fly.

I can see someone missing the Supreme Ring, as most just remember it reduces elemental damage and assume it does them all.

I think we're heading down the right path here.

There certainly needs to be some control/guide line covering this just so there is consistency.

I know as a coach If I happen to know something comes up in the dungeon I write it on the party card. But if I don't know I just tell them its conditional and to remember it. I do feel really bad for the folks that end up with half a dozen conditional tokens that they have to hold on to. I can only imagine it slows them down. I'm not talking about large token buyers or the average forumite, I'm talking about the folks that have maybe 20-30 tokens and are still trying to make use of commons. These folks have a lot of conditional effects and they are unfortunately the least likely to remember them because they are so new to everything.

Larger token buyer have the luxury of getting rares and URs which have less conditional effects, making them easier to use.


To make an analogy, we are taxing the poor.


The solutions are many, and mostly already listed.

They also do things like help avoid the year where Push Damage was described as typed but indicated it was unpreventable. Like the Shock damage that is more intense than normal shock damage...say what?!?...
Just call it push damage or Eldritch damage and lets move on.

valetutto wrote: Push Damage was described as typed but indicated it was unpreventable.

That topic has been brought to Jeff's attention and I believe it will be avoided in the future.

Druegar wrote:

valetutto wrote: Push Damage was described as typed but indicated it was unpreventable.

That topic has been brought to Jeff's attention and I believe it will be avoided in the future.

Yeah, lately it has been all Eldritch damage. Though then other people complain that using Eldritch damage all the time is a cop out. You can never win....

Incognito wrote:

Druegar wrote:

valetutto wrote: Push Damage was described as typed but indicated it was unpreventable.

That topic has been brought to Jeff's attention and I believe it will be avoided in the future.

Yeah, lately it has been all Eldritch damage. Though then other people complain that using Eldritch damage all the time is a cop out. You can never win....

Well yes because they want to reduce the damage taken.

Incognito wrote:

Druegar wrote:

valetutto wrote: Push Damage was described as typed but indicated it was unpreventable.

That topic has been brought to Jeff's attention and I believe it will be avoided in the future.

Yeah, lately it has been all Eldritch damage. Though then other people complain that using Eldritch damage all the time is a cop out. You can never win....

Hmmm...this brings up an interesting point.

It has been stated that:

“Eldritch” is an ancient form of divine Druidic magic lost to the ages. There is no known way to resist its powerful effects.

There are also a few rare items (mainly Cogwind Amulets) which reduce push damage ("-X push damage").

However, in the case of Eldritch push damage, presumably it can't be reduced, right?

So if someone with a -X push damage Cogwind Amulet takes Eldritch push damage, they take the full amount since it can't be reduced?


If the Eldritch push damage CAN be reduced, then it sets the interesting precedent that there are ways to resist/reduce Eldritch damage.

If the Eldritch push damage CAN'T be reduced, then those Cogwind Amulets are less useful if a lot of push damage becomes Eldritch.

Back in the Old Days©, when you failed a room, DMs would literally describe the damage you took as "Push damage". The purpose of Push damage is that failure should have a price. Otherwise people would just stand in the room for 12 minutes and do nothing.

But people whined, so Jeff started assigning a type to Push damage to make it feel more realistic. Then people whined because they had a resistance to that type of damage, forgetting that Push is supposed to be unavoidable.

Then Jeff started describing all Push damage as Eldritch, knowing that nobody would have resistance to it. But people whined, saying that it's unrealistic for every room to have Eldritch damage.

Jeff is a creative, clever guy. I'm sure he'll try very hard to come up with some new way to describe Push damage in an effort to please the un-pleasable. I'm equally sure it will not satisfy them.

The point is for Push to be something unavoidable if you fail the room. Whether it's called Fire, Eldritch, Tuna Salad, or Comfy Pillow, you're not supposed to be able to resist it!

As of last year, of the BILLIONS of people on planet Earth, of the tens of thousands who attend Gen Con, and of the thousands who will play TD, there is one ( maybe two, it's unclear to me ) person who should have any resistance to Push damage. And that person(s) can only reduce it by one point. Sometimes I feel like a vocal minority is making a tempest out of a teapot. Can we just take the frelling Push damage and move on?

Druegar wrote:
The point is for Push to be something unavoidable if you fail the room. Whether it's called Fire, Eldritch, Tuna Salad, or Comfy Pillow, you're not supposed to be able to resist it!

Being a vegetarian I am sure I can resist Tuna Salad.

Sorry I could not resist that joke.

Nor that one.

Again I apologize.