TOPIC: Basic Changes to 2016 Character Cards

Matthew Hayward wrote: Here's a chart of potential damage over 16 rounds of combat per class scaling by token level:


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Cr6g8Lf-Le-cmjIKR-nQg-amfEgI7BnT4KpyQznTy_Q/pubchart?oid=1834981888&format=interactive

Yeah.....

Interesting data, does it look similar over say the first 4 rounds (since outside of grind most combat doesn't last longer then that due to room constraints)

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Here's a chart of potential damage over 16 rounds of combat per class scaling by token level:


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Cr6g8Lf-Le-cmjIKR-nQg-amfEgI7BnT4KpyQznTy_Q/pubchart?oid=1834981888&format=interactive

Yeah.....

I've added charts showing damage potential assuming all slides hit, or 66% of slides hit.

https://docs.google.com/a/discount-dungeon.com/spreadsheets/d/1Cr6g8Lf-Le-cmjIKR-nQg-amfEgI7BnT4KpyQznTy_Q/edit#gid=450240468

Here are my takeaways and some potential ideas for new character card or token abilities:

There are 3 tiers of damage dealing characters:

• Dual Weapon Wielders (Monk and Ranger) do the most damage at all token levels


• Fighters Wielding Two-Handed Weapons (Barbarian, Fighter, Dwarf Fighter) who deal ~70% of the damage of the tier 1 characters


• Everyone Else (Bard, Cleric, Druid, Elf Wizard, Paladin, Rogue, Wizard) who deal ~40-55% of the tier 1 characters, and 55-75% of the tier 2 characters

STR Based Melee builds have the highest combat effectiveness for all classes

Where I'm coming from is this:

• Having multiple viable build paths is a good thing (STR build, DEX build, ranged build, melee build, spell build).


• Within combat, certain classes should not be flat out better at everything (damage, saves, HP, AC) than others. These things should trade off against one another.

Here is a brainstorm list of suggestions - I'm sure these aren't perfect - they may not even be good - please help improve them if you find them lacking.

• The Rogue could really use some help in combat - its combat stats are feeble like the rest of the spell casters (including Bard and Paladin in that category), but doesn't have as much other stuff to do (guard, cast utility spells, healing, turn undead, etc.). Maybe a 5th level ability or UR token that permits it to sneak attack every other round, or every round in one combat.


• Give Wizards, and perhaps Druids and Bards an ability like: "Spells cast as scroll, scrolls, and are modified by the Casters's spell damage bonus", via a 5th level ability, a UR token, or an Eldritch Set Bonus.


• Make AC more relevant in dungeon design for characters who engage in melee - part of the separation in these figures results from an all out damage over everything build approach - however today the only biggest penalty to that approach is a lower AC. For example, by equipping Plate Armor of Attack, Defender Helm, a 2 handed weapon, Ring of Brilliance, Ring of Enervation, and Rampage Charm a fighter is looking at +7 to damage and 8 AC - they could trade that out to the Defender Set and a one handed weapon to lose 7 damage and get 5 AC. Today it doesn't make sense to give up 7 damage to get 5 AC. It is important that this change only be relevant to characters who engage in melee - as the entire idea here would be to incent builds towards spellcasting and ranged weapons.


• Create more slotless or consumable items that boost spell damage: e.g. Elderberry Juice, Rare, Consumable, when drunk add +4 to spell damage for rest of combat.


• Change slide mechanics for damage spells. I suggest simply eliminating the slide requirement (as the Druid is already), or changing the slide hit to be strictly upside bonus - e.g.: Acid Arrow - 12 acid damage, hit AC-15 slide for +6 damage. Perhaps a spell caster class feature where slides are never required, but are optional, e.g.: arcane accuracy - instead of passing a planar skill test, a wizard may slide a 15-AC to get the damage bonus (that way wizards can choose if the like to slide or not).


• I know earlier there was resistance against the idea of a DEX based UR weapon that would have the DEX bonus modify damage. I think this might be the best way to incent alternate build paths - I don't see the ranged build as being comparable powerful to a melee build today unless you are pursuing a Might weapon which is STR based.


• If increasing the combat efficacy of spell casters is not in the cards, maybe try to find ways to give them roleplay relevance outside of combat, such as the Rogue has. Maybe bring back some kind of physical magic item detection (via a wand with an RFID chip in it or something) and have 2 rooms in the dungeon where this matters for getting a hint or a surprise round vs. a monster or something.


• If increasing the spell damage of Wizards in particular is not in the cards, give them support abilities that are truly valuable in combat similar to the Cleric's Healing or Bardsong. A natural area here would be in monster control: spells that would for example force a monster to use only ranged attacks for a round, or not attack any of 4 designated characters for 2 rounds, or only be able to attack characters engaging it with melee or something. One could try to make each dungeon have 1 "swarm" type monster and give them abilities to deal with swarms.


• I'm trying to avoid a "bucket of crabs" mentality with regard to the Druid versus other Wizards and the Cleric (who as a group are all below average), but do something about the fact that the Druid is 2/3rds or more of a Wizard and 2/3rds or more of a Cleric in one body.


• Do something about the Elf Wizard being so under-powered relative to other spell casters - the Druid out-damages the Elf Wizard at Common and Rare token levels, and also is better in every other way - particularly in having lots of healing spells. Perhaps the Wizard would get way more powerful damage spells overall, but the Elf Wizard has a class feature of "Elder Magic" which causes all scrolls, wants, and "as a scroll" effects to be modified by the Elf Wizard's spell damage bonus?

Picc wrote: Interesting data, does it look similar over say the first 4 rounds (since outside of grind most combat doesn't last longer then that due to room constraints)

I chose 16 rounds thinking this would be roughly the total number of combat rounds in the combat (versus puzzle) dungeon.

It's all the same to the classes without substantial offensive spell capacity (Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Dwarf Fighter, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue) - just divide by 4.

For the classes with offensive spells (Druid, Elf Wizard, Wizard) it's hard to say as their spells are of differing power, and a limited resource. For example, a Legendary geared out Wizard could do as much as 145 points of damage in 4 rounds (before getting excited, a Legendary Ranger can do 284, a fighter 207). By firing off Lightning Storm/Mad Evoker's Charm and 3x Magic Missile.

The Legendary Wizard could also do as little as 76 over 4 rounds with Fire Ray / Ray of Frost.

I think it's reasonable to just divide the offensive spellcaster damage output by 4 to figure out how much damage for one combat - with the understanding that it could be more or less depending on which spells are exhausted, but it will average out to around that.

Interesting ideas. I agree with most of what has been said on this thread. I like the new basic designs on the character cards, and I agree that the character stats are in some major need of updating as well.

Moving forward, personally I'd like to see changes that result in two things:

1) Make each class matter in terms of damage output and usefulness to the party, From a min/maxing standpoint, the base abilities of one class should not completely outshine the rest or be left in the dust. (see Matthew Hayward's points on the Druid and Dwarf Fighter). We need to do some math here and not just go by feelings. And if a character is going to remain seriously lacking in damage output then he needs some other abilities that are very important and actually matter. The Rogue is the only character IMO that has an ability like this with the puzzle clues. I've never seen a Bard'd Lore check matter nor the Wizard's Detect Magic matter.

2) Increase class uniqueness through roleplay. I have a few simple ideas that might work:

• Make where people stand in combat matter. If a character enters melee combat then it ought be a lot more dangerous for him than ranged combat. Perhaps monsters always target melee fighters or get extra attacks on them. Or make it common that monsters have auras that auto damage anyone with an AC least than a certain value. Characters ought to fear approaching these monsters if they are only wearing a fancy robe instead of platemail.


• Have more items in the rooms that only certain characters can use. A lever than can only be raised by someone with X strength or more, holy symbols that only function in the hands of the Cleric or Paladin, creatures that only speak with a Ranger or Druid. And someone had mentioned a wand that the wizards could use with an RFID chip for detect magic.
  
  Tags could be placed on some of these items telling the players, for example how heavy they are. Other things could be hidden messages revealed in different ways. One class uses an RFID chip, another uses a blacklight, another a red decoder (like this )
, etc. These items would be kept with the DM in the room and handed to the appropriate character as they enter. (Ideal for those puzzle rooms where the DMs have less to do while the party wanders about.)


• Have NCPs react to different characters in different ways more often. I realize who the NPCs interact with most is usually going to be determined by the player response, but perhaps they are be on the lookout for certain characters first. (Example: a dwarven NPC who only wants to talk to the Dwarf Fighter first) Of course each NPC would need at least 3-4 PCs to look for in case the first one is absent.


• Give out clues to the adventure to certain classes - either in the training room or first room of the dungeon. This could be a simple, yet TD-official piece of paper handed to the specific class. Example 1: the Bard heard a song about this region of the underdark. The paper handed to the Bard actually is that song and it contains a helpful hint for a later room. Example 2: the Monk trained with a hermit from these parts once and he receives a letter from him at the start warning him of a type of monster but also informing him of their weakness to Acid damage.
  
  These would have to be simple enough that the party could get by without them, but important enough that they actually help somewhat. Perhaps 6 of the 12 classes receive notes in one dungeon and the other 6 get them in the second dungeon for a little variety.

Basically I'm just trying to think of little ways that each individual can feel like he or she mattered. In a party of ten adventures it is all too easy for a newbie to feel like they were not needed. If each class has some unique way to contribute, many more players would walk away feeling like they were a crucial member of the team and remembering their 15 seconds of fame.

Adeya,

Those are some incredible ideas and I smiled just reading through them. I hope these make it to Jeff and he's able to incorporate some of them in future dungeons.

Lore is pretty important at times, but could stand improvement. The last combat of Giant's Travail involved two enemies and the Lore check removed one set of HP to fight through.

Adeya wrote: Basically I'm just trying to think of little ways that each individual can feel like he or she mattered. In a party of ten adventures it is all too easy for a newbie to feel like they were not needed. If each class has some unique way to contribute, many more players would walk away feeling like they were a crucial member of the team and remembering their 15 seconds of fame.

I agree - that "15 seconds of fame" is a great feeling, and can make or break a Dungeon run.

Back when there were just 6 or 7 classes, that element seemed baked in: The Paladin's Detect Evil (a Holy Pouch he wore around his neck would literally vibrate when he approached an evil artifact) allowed the party to be ready for combat before the undead creature emerged from the crypt. The Bard was able to point out a "Poison" rune on a chest and prevent the party from taking damage by opening it. The Wizard could use Detect Magic to shine her UV light on a wall and find additional clues for a puzzle. Basically, the adventure was written so each class had a chance to shine. With 7 classes and 7 Rooms, it wasn't too difficult to work in those special moments.

Now, with 10 players, and 12 classes to choose from, the dungeon can't be designed so any specific class is *essential.* And it's really hard to give everyone their 15 seconds in the spotlight... especially when there's so much cross-over between the roles.

ADDED: I'm not trying to say "Bah. TD isn't what it used to be. We should go back to the old ways. Grrr. Now get off my lawn."
The reality is that the game has had to evolve, and we've had to make changes to allow more people to participate, and to keep up with the rising cost of site rentals. Any changes we make will have to keep these practicalities in mind.

I agree that Monster Lore is not always worth doing, but not all monsters have a special attack or an Achilles heel. If you're fighting a straight-forward, basic monster, what would you have the lore reveal?

I would have it reveal just that, Druegar - "the creature appears to have no vulnerabilities or specific weaknesses". That alone would help the group form a quick strategy - churn and burn, no need to try any special token or burn a special card ability/spell.

joshua baessler wrote: I would have it reveal just that, Druegar - "the creature appears to have no vulnerabilities or specific weaknesses". That alone would help the group form a quick strategy - churn and burn, no need to try any special token or burn a special card ability/spell.

Maybe some results, like that one, should have a special effect of "take another standard action."

As in, "it's obviously a generic Orc, so what's to think about? I'm smackin' it."

I'd like to see a reason for the Bard to choose Cabal gloves and bracelets vs Mithril gauntlets or gloves of the brute or just about any bracers. Right now, they gain very little benefit from the bracelets, and not equipping the Mithral or brute gloves is a big downside.
It has been suggested for other classes, but perhaps the Bard might actually choose bracelets of the cabal and potentially using a ring of focus if those could affect scrolls used. That might also boost the chance of wanting to use gloves of the cabal as well
Picturing a Bard wearing gloves of the brute and playing an instrument is funny.

Is there any interest in dividing the Druid into two Druid types?
One would be more oriented toward shape shifting and battle, and have spells potentially oriented around animals and plants, and the other Druid would be more elemental related.

Perhaps the shape shifting druid could regain some hit points when shifting, but would have less healing ability on an outward basis.perhaps the shifting droid could have a minor shift of his own that he would not need to expand a potion to shape shift. Perhaps a wolf or a hawk?

The elemental druid could gain some earth or stone related spell or spells or a bonus to their elemental spells, but lose the bonus of extra damage when shape shifting.