Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me
Forgot your password? Forgot your username? Create an account
Forum
General
Forums From Yesteryear
2015 Gen Con Indy
Basic Changes to 2016 Character Cards

TOPIC: Basic Changes to 2016 Character Cards

Re: Basic Changes to 2016 Character Cards 9 years 2 months ago #73

As far as which character shhould be attacked first it should be spelled out in the module....a lich should go after the paladin / cleric first.....a mindflayer would go after spellcasters and so forth. To many Dm's look st a party card and decide they have no chance to hit player X so why even bother. Iwould be in favor of ss taunt ability also.
Fall down......Go boom!

Adam Guay

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Re: Basic Changes to 2016 Character Cards 9 years 2 months ago #74

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I'd also suggest looking at bonus to hit and bonus to damage at several levels

baseline (no tokens)
top tier (all legendary+ Ultra Rare tokens)
high tier (All Ultra Rare tokens)
mid tier (all Rare tokens)
low tier (all Uncommon tokens)

I think there is a wide margin between classes at multiple tiers.

I'd look at Spell hit and damage for Wizard, attack and spell for Druid, attack and healing for Cleric, paladin


I've started this effort. I won't be at WYC but maybe someone who is interested can print this out and try to make the case.


I've updated the sheet with some common level (e.g. one pack of tokens), and good red builds - in the red builds I'm optimizing for damage per round:

https://docs.google.com/a/discount-dungeon.com/spreadsheets/d/1Cr6g8Lf-Le-cmjIKR-nQg-amfEgI7BnT4KpyQznTy_Q/edit#gid=100713723

As I've been going through this exercise, I've actually changed my views on several items related to balance at rare and below tokens.

Things that struck out at me as really wacky at the rare and lower token:

Two Handed Weapons For the Win:

The best build for everyone other than the Ranger and Monk is probably to wield the best two handed weapon they can manage, and wear the Ring of Brilliance, Ring of Enervation, and Charm of Rampage, which adds +6 damage.

It's sort of a bummer that the way to get to the highest DPR is the same for every class, every class has access to 2 handed weapons, and even the lowly Wizard with a good red build is wading into melee battle at +4 to hit and swinging for an average of 15.5 points of damage each round. Also - this makes the Defender set (and shields in general) sort of silly.

This situation does not seem likely to change at the UR+ tier where between the Boots of the East Wind and Gauntlets of Linked Fury give +10 damage to two handed weapons versus the +5/6 damage available from the Boots of the North Wind and Mithral Gauntlets/Gloves of the Brute.

I'm not sure what can be done about this, maybe changing module design to make AC way more important than it is today for characters who choose to engage in melee attacks? But this seems likely to be problematic for pick up groups with one pack of tokens. Maybe at Hardcore and Nightmare this could come into play.

The Mighty, Mighty Sling:

The Mighty Sling is probably the best rare ranged weapon for all classes other than the Bard and Paladin once the Gauntlets of Ogre Power, Belt of Ogre Power, and Wicket Charm are equipped.

Seriously, You Guys, Nerf The Druid:

The Druid gets:
  • 165% of the automatic damage of the Elf Wizard, and 116% of all damage of the Elf Wizard (assuming the Elf hits on their AC-15 slide)
  • 106% of the automatic damage of the Wizard, and 67% of all damage of the Wizard (assuming the Wizard hits with both their AC-15 slides)
  • 71% of the healing of the Cleric
Equipping the Druid with two uncommons: Increases these figures to:
  • 175% of the automatic damage of the Elf Wizard, and 125% of all damage of the Elf Wizard (assuming the Elf hits on their AC-15 slide)
  • 114% of the automatic damage of the Wizard, and 72% of all damage of the Wizard (assuming the Wizard hits with both their AC-15 slides)
  • 91% of the healing of the Cleric
The Druid also has more saves, hit points, and usable weapons and armor than the Wizards.

The Wizards only begin to make up a little ground at the UR+ token levels with the UR+ Staff of Focus and Mad Evoker's Charm (which the Druid gets to do once per adventure without a token, and without taking 10 damage, a head and a charm slot) - but arguably the Druid gets more help at these levels as the Rings of Focus help both healing and damage spells, and the Druid gets Lenses of Divine Sight, and the +10 points healing and +1 level from the Eldritch Set bonus.

Anyway - my point is in terms of min/max gaming there is no reason I can think of to play Wizard instead of Druid at the rare token level - and probably at any level.

This seems bad.

A similar disparity seems to exist between the Elf Wizard and the Wizard, to the point that I don't think anyone plays the Elf Wizard.

The Poor Rogue!

I've been thinking the Wizard was the most feeble class, but the Rogue is below average at everything except ranged to-hit, even given the ability to sneak attack without the one round penalty conveyed by tokens.

The Rogue is basically a Druid with worse saves and no spells.

Maybe the rogue should steal the Druid's saves, and 1/3 of their spells. ;).

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Re: Basic Changes to 2016 Character Cards 9 years 2 months ago #75

  • Picc
  • Picc's Avatar
  • Offline
  • 10th Level
  • Supporter
  • Remember when we were explorers?
  • Posts: 7117
The rogue also has the less tangible benefit of the clue boxes though (big part of the reason I play one).
Semper Gumby, Always flexible.

Sartre sits in in a coffee shop and asks for a coffee without cream. The barista apologizes “Sorry, we don't have any cream. Can I offer you a coffee without milk instead?”

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Re: Basic Changes to 2016 Character Cards 9 years 2 months ago #76

The elf wizard sees play in 2 situations.

You have the Staff of Power and want to use +10 to initiative every combat.

You have 2 wizards in the party.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Re: Basic Changes to 2016 Character Cards 9 years 2 months ago #77

Picc wrote: The rogue also has the less tangible benefit of the clue boxes though (big part of the reason I play one).


The Druid can get one of the three clues from the Rogue box with Bowl of Spirit Sight.
I play Wizard.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Re: Basic Changes to 2016 Character Cards 9 years 2 months ago #78

Picc wrote: The rogue also has the less tangible benefit of the clue boxes though (big part of the reason I play one).


Yeah - the Rogue at least gets the best "role play" support outside of combat with class only physical interaction with the dungeon (puzzle box), and in game choices (treasure token or clue) that seems unique - so I suppose the argument that the rogues combat abilities are offset by their general roleplay abilities.

Maybe that is the idea with the Wizard's as well - however outside the ~2007 era where detect magic, comprehend language, and detect secret doors gave players a physical UV/blacklight way to interact with the dungeon I feel like utility spells basically do nothing.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Re: Basic Changes to 2016 Character Cards 9 years 2 months ago #79

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I'd also suggest looking at bonus to hit and bonus to damage at several levels

baseline (no tokens)
top tier (all legendary+ Ultra Rare tokens)
high tier (All Ultra Rare tokens)
mid tier (all Rare tokens)
low tier (all Uncommon tokens)

I think there is a wide margin between classes at multiple tiers.

I'd look at Spell hit and damage for Wizard, attack and spell for Druid, attack and healing for Cleric, paladin


Spreadsheet updated to have Common, Rare, and UR builds for all classes. I'll get around to best in slot builds next.

https://docs.google.com/a/discount-dungeon.com/spreadsheets/d/1Cr6g8Lf-Le-cmjIKR-nQg-amfEgI7BnT4KpyQznTy_Q/edit#gid=1630544139

Things I learned while doing the UR Builds:

Damage Potential By Class

The trend of damage potential by class has continued, and the Wizards are indeed getting left in the dust at this level:
  • Tier 1 - Dual Sliders - Ranger, Monk
  • Tier 2 - Two Handed Weapon Fighter Types - Barbarian, Dwarf Fighter, Fighter, Paladin
  • Tier 3 - Moderate Proficiency Fighters - Bard, Cleric, Druid, Rogue
  • Tier 4 - Wizards - Elf Wizard, Wizard

Note here this is damage _potential_ which basically assumes every slide is a hit (clearly not true), that being said when a UR equipped Ranger or Monk can potentially deal over 800 points of damage in 16 rounds, and a UR equipped Wizard can potentially deal less than 300 in the same number of rounds, its hard to imagine the ranger/monk missing on the 5/8ths of their slides while the Wizard hits on all theirs for these things to balance out.

Here are some summaries of the damage capabilities in 16 rounds of combat, assuming use of MEC by Wizards for their top 4 offensive spells, and that monster's don't save against spells:
Token Rarity	Barbarian	Bard	Cleric	Druid	Dwarf Fighter	Elf Wizard	Fighter	Monk	Paladin	Ranger	Rogue	Wizard
Common Tokens  	120	76	61	105	88	91	104	144	72	163	59	118
Rare Tokens    	330	153	241	264	298	211	314	464	282	355	155	190
Ultra Rare     	733	436	441	378	701	299	717	880	685	848	424	280

More Variety at UR

While trying to generally optimize the build for total damage output, I changed that a little for the spellcaster classes and focused on total spell damage output as the primary concern. At this rarity level I traded off lots of melee damage for the Wizard and Elf Wizard in favor of getting them to level 5, while being able to equip the +2 staff of power.

Even without that, we start to see some variation into two major categories:

Those who can go to war with two handed weapons (basically those who can equip Guantlets of Linked Fury), and everyone else.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Re: Basic Changes to 2016 Character Cards 9 years 2 months ago #80

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I'd also suggest looking at bonus to hit and bonus to damage at several levels

baseline (no tokens)
top tier (all legendary+ Ultra Rare tokens)
high tier (All Ultra Rare tokens)
mid tier (all Rare tokens)
low tier (all Uncommon tokens)

I think there is a wide margin between classes at multiple tiers.

I'd look at Spell hit and damage for Wizard, attack and spell for Druid, attack and healing for Cleric, paladin


Spreadsheet updated to have Legendary as well as Common, Rare, and UR builds for all classes.

https://docs.google.com/a/discount-dungeon.com/spreadsheets/d/1Cr6g8Lf-Le-cmjIKR-nQg-amfEgI7BnT4KpyQznTy_Q/edit#gid=1630544139

Things I learned while doing the Legendary Builds:

Mighty Sling! Bracers of Frost! Charm of Rampage!

A few C/UC/R tokens still do great work at this tier, like the rare Mighty Sling still the best ranged weapon for many classes with this build profile (maximizing damage per round).

Sliding, For the Win!

At this tier, sliding seems the best way to deal damage, even for Wizards. For example, a Wizard legendary spell boosting gear and the MeC can do 3 35 point Magic Missile's in the dungeon - which is great.

But once they are out of those and Lightning Storm, they should probably be sliding their Drake's +5 Staff of Focus to do ~32 damage per round with a +11 to hit.

This strikes me as bad for two reasons:
  • Wizards should cast spells, not beat people over the head with a stick.

  • As long as Wizards are beating people over the head with a stick, they might as well play Barbarian, Fighter, or Paladin and at least be doing it with a sharp stick like the Deathcleaver!

Basically I see at this tier Wizards as bad Barbarians (worse DPR, worse to hit bonuses, half the HP), who have ~4 auto hit slides on their character card.

Damage Potential By Class


Note here this is damage _potential_ which basically assumes every slide is a hit (clearly not true).

Here are some summaries of the damage capabilities in 16 rounds of combat, assuming use of MEC by Wizards for their top 4 offensive spells, and that monster's don't save against spells:
Rarity Barb Bard Clrc Drud DF   ElfW Fgtr Monk Pldn Rngr Rgue Wzrd
C       120   76   61  105   88	  91  104  144	 72  163   59  118
R	330  153  256  264  314	 211  330  464	298  355  155  190
UR	717  481  500  405  701  335  717  880	685  848  472  292
Legend	829  586  503  457  813	 503  829 1168	797 1136  616  466

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Re: Basic Changes to 2016 Character Cards 9 years 2 months ago #81

You seem to be missing Rod of Seven Parts from your Legendary builds. +1 str/+1 dex will effect damage potential.

(For the Monk, Ro7P + Gloves of the Brute = +2 Str, -1 Dex.)

Also, if you are going to count drinking a potion/applying an oil in every room you should probably add in runestones also.
Forum Name: Milambus
Real Name: Jake Fitch
Main Class: Monk

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Re: Basic Changes to 2016 Character Cards 9 years 2 months ago #82

Jake Fitch wrote: You seem to be missing Rod of Seven Parts from your Legendary builds. +1 str/+1 dex will effect damage potential.

(For the Monk, Ro7P + Gloves of the Brute = +2 Str, -1 Dex.)

Also, if you are going to count drinking a potion/applying an oil in every room you should probably add in runestones also.

Thanks, Stats wise All those things are in there at the legendary level - but I'll make sure the rosp is listed in the token builds

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Re: Basic Changes to 2016 Character Cards 9 years 2 months ago #83

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Jake Fitch wrote: You seem to be missing Rod of Seven Parts from your Legendary builds. +1 str/+1 dex will effect damage potential.

(For the Monk, Ro7P + Gloves of the Brute = +2 Str, -1 Dex.)

Also, if you are going to count drinking a potion/applying an oil in every room you should probably add in runestones also.

Thanks, Stats wise All those things are in there at the legendary level - but I'll make sure the rosp is listed in the token builds


All fixed up now - thanks!

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Re: Basic Changes to 2016 Character Cards 9 years 2 months ago #84

Here's a chart of potential damage over 16 rounds of combat per class scaling by token level:


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Cr6g8Lf-Le-cmjIKR-nQg-amfEgI7BnT4KpyQznTy_Q/pubchart?oid=1834981888&format=interactive

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
Forum
General
Forums From Yesteryear
2015 Gen Con Indy
Basic Changes to 2016 Character Cards
Time to create page: 0.123 seconds