TOPIC: I want to discuss the current wand rules and propose bring back permanent wands

Given the fact that there are now we have the mage medallion, Ashenne’s Arch-Mage Medallion, and to a lesser extent Mad Evokers Charm. I don’t see medallion of mystic mouth being overpowered at this point at all.

My wizard build has a damage bonus 42 and that isn’t an exceptional build. A wand currently maxes out at 15 points per round assuming you are willing to give up a ring slot that could have went to a much better token like Ring of Greater Focus, Ring of the Yeti, Muk’s,
Relsa’s, or Greater Ring of Havoc. Point being 12 points out a regular wizard per round seems more plausible since a Ioun stone is much easier to fit into a build than a ring.

Next the power level is already there is just expensive to use. You can use the wands at the same power level but very few people do because it is expensive to burn 3 to 4 wands per run. I would and am going to use some on a Grind run at origins but in general I just can’t justify using that many resources per run so mystic mouth stays on the sideline for most runs.

Next let’s think about class talent.
The wizard class talent is wand mastery and we are doing nothing with this class talent to speak of. Making wands permanent again would encourage use of wands and thus the class talent and open up some design space. If wands were not one room then gone we could look at making ultra rare wands and up where right now that isn’t and option.

So now I’ll explain my personal reasons for wanting permanent wands again. I don’t play wizard as a primary class so I don’t have the mage powers memorized. Mystic Mouth is simple and straight to the point without being overpowered, but comparatively expensive to use basically adding $3 to $8 to a run depending on number of combats and how cheap you can find the wands.

+1 on all points

True hero of time (THOT ) wrote: +1 on all points blocky blast

Thanks you so much

Wayne - your comments here seem premised on the idea that Medallion of Mystic Mouth was seen as too powerful, and that's why wands went away.

That is not why wands went away.

I don't even think that was an element of discussion in why wands went away.

The history of wands is something like:

1. Originally, wands were multi use consumables. The difficulty and fiddlyness of tracking multi use consumables proved logistically challenging for DMs (and maybe for transmuting).

TD decided a change needed to happen after 2017.

2. First iteration: Wands were to be replaced by something called "spars" which would function similar to wands but not be consumables. This idea never made it out of design, perhaps due to very vocal objections from some druid players who perceived they were being excluded from something. (If memory servers, there were to be common, uncommon, and rare Spars, and Wizards would be able to use any spar, Druids to use uncommon and below, and clerics to use common only).

3. Second iteration: Wands were not consumables, but could only be used once per room (however maybe you could bring multiple copies of a wand into a room, or use multiple different ones).

This was basically the "spars" idea, but just called wands. This lasted one year in 2018.

I don't think it's clear why this approach was abandoned. _If_ it was abandoned due to power concerns, the concerns were almost certainly at the normal level of play, where owning 3 or so rare tokens would mean many lvl-0 offensive spells were essentially useless (for characters with a spell bonus of 0), and maybe several lvl-1 offensive spells.

4. Third iteration: Wands are consumables, but can be used any number of times per room. This lasted from 2019-2021.

I don't know why this form of wands was curtailed, but again, I don't think it had anything to do with their raw power. If I had to guess, it related to having a distinct gear category that takes up spaces on the token sheets each year in design, has unique rules, wasn't desirable by token-a-holics, wasn't clear to new players, etc., etc..

5. Fourth Iteration: Mystic Staffs.

Introduced in 2022, Mystic Staffs seem to be the spiritual successor to these iterations on the Wand idea. Unlike wands, their damage is easily modified by the zillions of ranged damage boosting tokens. Also unlike wands they require a slide to hit.


Anyway - I'd be happy to see wands return but I don't think it's realistic - to support wands in token design you have to allocate a few slots on the token sheet each year to them, and they aren't desirable for high end builds (since their damage isn't modified by things that boost ranged or spell damage), and at the low end they introduce new rules for new players to think about which don't add much, if anything to the player experience while drawing them away from their core class abilities.

It is silly that both Elf Wizard and Human Wizard 5th level character classes have boons that relate to mechanics that are no longer supported for those classes - that should be fixed.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Wayne - your comments here seem premised on the idea that Medallion of Mystic Mouth was seen as too powerful, and that's why wands went away.

That is not why wands went away.

I don't even think that was an element of discussion in why wands went away.

The history of wands is something like:

1. Originally, wands were multi use consumables. The difficulty and fiddlyness of tracking multi use consumables proved logistically challenging for DMs (and maybe for transmuting).

TD decided a change needed to happen after 2017.

2. First iteration: Wands were to be replaced by something called "spars" which would function similar to wands but not be consumables. This idea never made it out of design, perhaps due to very vocal objections from some druid players who perceived they were being excluded from something. (If memory servers, there were to be common, uncommon, and rare Spars, and Wizards would be able to use any spar, Druids to use uncommon and below, and clerics to use common only).

3. Second iteration: Wands were not consumables, but could only be used once per room (however maybe you could bring multiple copies of a wand into a room, or use multiple different ones).

This was basically the "spars" idea, but just called wands. This lasted one year in 2018.

I don't think it's clear why this approach was abandoned. _If_ it was abandoned due to power concerns, the concerns were almost certainly at the normal level of play, where owning 3 or so rare tokens would mean many lvl-0 offensive spells were essentially useless (for characters with a spell bonus of 0), and maybe several lvl-1 offensive spells.

4. Third iteration: Wands are consumables, but can be used any number of times per room. This lasted from 2019-2021.

I don't know why this form of wands was curtailed, but again, I don't think it had anything to do with their raw power. If I had to guess, it related to having a distinct gear category that takes up spaces on the token sheets each year in design, has unique rules, wasn't desirable by token-a-holics, wasn't clear to new players, etc., etc..

5. Fourth Iteration: Mystic Staffs.

Introduced in 2022, Mystic Staffs seem to be the spiritual successor to these iterations on the Wand idea. Unlike wands, their damage is easily modified by the zillions of ranged damage boosting tokens. Also unlike wands they require a slide to hit.


Anyway - I'd be happy to see wands return but I don't think it's realistic - to support wands in token design you have to allocate a few slots on the token sheet each year to them, and they aren't desirable for high end builds (since their damage isn't modified by things that boost ranged or spell damage), and at the low end they introduce new rules for new players to think about which don't add much, if anything to the player experience while drawing them away from their core class abilities.

It is silly that both Elf Wizard and Human Wizard 5th level character classes have boons that relate to mechanics that are no longer supported for those classes - that should be fixed.

I heard people complaining about mystic mouth being too good at the time. I believe some loud voices in the community were able to get non consumable wands nuked. This is back when Mad Evokers charm was still on top. Basically you could run MEC and mystic mouth at the same time picking up about an extra 12 damage as a free action per round. This would have been much stronger under the old MEC than it is under its current rules.

Also I had not realized at the time I posted this that wands went away. I found that out while talking to a mystic mouth enthusiast friend at gencon.

I for one would like to see at least one wand a year and maybe drop a bead a year. Definitely too late for 2026 but I’ll post my thoughts again in development for 2027 when we get closer.

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Wayne - your comments here seem premised on the idea that Medallion of Mystic Mouth was seen as too powerful, and that's why wands went away.

That is not why wands went away.

I don't even think that was an element of discussion in why wands went away.

The history of wands is something like:

1. Originally, wands were multi use consumables. The difficulty and fiddlyness of tracking multi use consumables proved logistically challenging for DMs (and maybe for transmuting).

TD decided a change needed to happen after 2017.

2. First iteration: Wands were to be replaced by something called "spars" which would function similar to wands but not be consumables. This idea never made it out of design, perhaps due to very vocal objections from some druid players who perceived they were being excluded from something. (If memory servers, there were to be common, uncommon, and rare Spars, and Wizards would be able to use any spar, Druids to use uncommon and below, and clerics to use common only).

3. Second iteration: Wands were not consumables, but could only be used once per room (however maybe you could bring multiple copies of a wand into a room, or use multiple different ones).

This was basically the "spars" idea, but just called wands. This lasted one year in 2018.

I don't think it's clear why this approach was abandoned. _If_ it was abandoned due to power concerns, the concerns were almost certainly at the normal level of play, where owning 3 or so rare tokens would mean many lvl-0 offensive spells were essentially useless (for characters with a spell bonus of 0), and maybe several lvl-1 offensive spells.

4. Third iteration: Wands are consumables, but can be used any number of times per room. This lasted from 2019-2021.

I don't know why this form of wands was curtailed, but again, I don't think it had anything to do with their raw power. If I had to guess, it related to having a distinct gear category that takes up spaces on the token sheets each year in design, has unique rules, wasn't desirable by token-a-holics, wasn't clear to new players, etc., etc..

5. Fourth Iteration: Mystic Staffs.

Introduced in 2022, Mystic Staffs seem to be the spiritual successor to these iterations on the Wand idea. Unlike wands, their damage is easily modified by the zillions of ranged damage boosting tokens. Also unlike wands they require a slide to hit.


Anyway - I'd be happy to see wands return but I don't think it's realistic - to support wands in token design you have to allocate a few slots on the token sheet each year to them, and they aren't desirable for high end builds (since their damage isn't modified by things that boost ranged or spell damage), and at the low end they introduce new rules for new players to think about which don't add much, if anything to the player experience while drawing them away from their core class abilities.

It is silly that both Elf Wizard and Human Wizard 5th level character classes have boons that relate to mechanics that are no longer supported for those classes - that should be fixed.

I heard people complaining about mystic mouth being too good at the time. I believe some loud voices in the community were able to get non consumable wands nuked. This is back when Mad Evokers charm was still on top. Basically you could run MEC and mystic mouth at the same time picking up about an extra 12 damage as a free action per round. This would have been much stronger under the old MEC than it is under its current rules.

Also I had not realized at the time I posted this that wands went away. I found that out while talking to a mystic mouth enthusiast friend at gencon.

I for one would like to see at least one wand a year and maybe drop a bead a year. Definitely too late for 2026 but I’ll post my thoughts again in development for 2027 when we get closer.

Perhaps - I was around at the time, and I feel like I would have paid attention to that - but I don't recall it. My memory isn't so great though.