TOPIC: +2 Assassin's Crossbow

It's the time of year for token design discussion again, and as with previous years, a few posts have been made suggesting that +2 Assassin's Crossbow needs a fix.

Rather than include this in token suggestion threads, it seems to me that it'd be best to have a thread specifically for discussing whether any fix is needed for this token, then moving on to token design afterwards if a fix is needed.

For ease of reference, the crossbow is as below:

+2 Assassin's Crossbow
2-Handed Ranged weapon.
9,8,6,6,5,4.
Rogues deal x3 damage on crit.

This token was part of the 2015 set, released several years before Raphiel's Sneaky Necklace. The perceived issue is that the expanded crit range during Sneak Attacks from Raphiel's, combined with the ongoing power creep of damage bonuses, makes the crossbow deal too much damage on a crit.

The average damage wheel of the crossbow is 6.3. The next best ranged weapon for Rogues is Nightshade's +2 Throwing Dagger, which has an average damage wheel of 4.8, which I will round up to 5 as the dagger has a 1/6 chance of granting +4 damage depending on its orientation during a Sneak Attack. Nightshade's +2 Throwing Dagger has the ability to double the Sneak Attack damage bonus on a crit, or in other words +20 damage on a Sneak Attack crit for a 5th level Rogue.

Taking into account the fact that builds for both weapons differ a bit since Nightshade's gets incidental STR-based damage bonuses from tokens like Arcanum Shirt, Rod of 7 Parts, Stalker Bead of Skill, and doesn't force the user to spend their eye slot on Lenses of Agility, it's reasonable to state that a Rogue build will see better crit damage from the crossbow than the dagger once its base Ranged damage modifier exceeds the +15 to +20 range. The gap in damage output grows progressively wider after that, as the crossbow triples all of its damage bonuses while the dagger only doubles them.

It's also important to consider that the crossbow can be used with Gregor's Gladiator Gloves, which were released this year and significantly widen the gap between the crossbow and any other Rogue ranged or melee weapons.

In the current state of the game, it is very clear that the crossbow is the best weapon for Rogues playing at Nightmare or Epic level. Any builds suitable for lower difficulty levels will have a low enough damage modifier that the ability on the crossbow isn't going to do very much. I would also suggest that the perceived problem is specific to physical events - based on my own experience from the start of VTD until now, I generally get around 1 crit per run on VTD, despite having a wider crit range than other classes. In contrast, it is much easier to slide crits at in-person events since you have a degree of control over the result.

The questions to be answered then, are:

• How much damage does the crossbow need to deal in order to be considered overpowered and need a fix?

• What conditions are required to produce that much damage? Base damage modifier, only when a crit is slid and only during a Sneak Attack, any use of Boost, Bardsong, consumables, etc.

• How does this compare to other classes, especially when the combat lasts more than 2 rounds or the Rogue fails to land a crit, so the Rogue isn't outputting max damage every turn?

• Taking into account all of the above, is the crossbow a problem?

My Rogue build (which is not BiS) has a base damage modifier of +31. I am very consistently outdamaged by other classes, including when I slide a crit during a Sneak Attack, so clearly the damage modifier would need to be far higher than +31 to be considered something in need of fixing.

Another consideration is that Mythic difficulty is on the way. It's reasonable to assume that this will come with a sizable increase in enemy AC modifiers, so could well force Rogue crossbow builds to drop their damage output in exchange for higher hit modifiers, since the crossbow is only a +2 weapon. I would expect this to also be true for saves and potentially AC, although a counterpoint is the growth in both power creep and slot expanders we have seen in recent years which may allow builds to keep pace if this continues.

I'll be interested to hear people's thoughts. Has the crossbow caused your runs to be a not-fun experience by ending combats too early? Is this occurring consistently and in runs with different groups? Is it still an issue if it's something a Rogue player needs to deliberately work towards causing, rather than being something which players have no control over? Or are you happy that other classes are consistently outputting high enough damage that the conditional damage from Rogues isn't something which concerns you?

I'll close with my own view, which is that personally I've never seen it cause any problems, either in physical or virtual events, and so the only problem I have with it is that it's far enough ahead of the other Rogue weapons that its existence is an obstacle to build diversity, which feels less to me like a balance issue and more that Rogues could use a new Relic or Legendary weapon as an alternative build path - preferably a melee one to replace Asher's which nowadays requires Rogues to forego two of Arcanum Short, Kilt of Dungeonbane, and Surtyr's Girdle in order to get the set bonus. Given that I'm based overseas though, I'm sure that there are players who play vastly more runs than me who can draw on much more experience to give a considered answer.

Although I have been sad my Paladin consistently does the least amount of damage vs all other classes when on an equal gear lvl, even with using +4 STR potions.. I have never seen a run ruined by this. If anything, those whom witness the high dmg are all congratulating our Rouge. Worst case in a Hardcore run we have requested that the DM reduce our dmg additionally to those who are hitting too hard ( By we I mean each player individually. I have requested mine be nerfed as I have seen our Barbarian, Wizards and other classes including Rouge ask to be nerfed in certain runs ). Or in other cases I have seen our Rouge switch there weapon so they’re not hitting that hard when in pick up groups.
As I stated above, although I am sad about how my own favorite and primary class does, I see no reason to nerf, or change how the + 2 Assassins Crossbow functions. Outside of some on the forums discussing it, not once have I ever seen it hurt a run in any way, or had some be dissatisfied with this weapon being on our run.

My rogue build (in sig) is near max dmg (I chose some build adjustments that differ based on flavor preferences- and I need to update it w the legendary gloves for another +2 dmg and a couple minor adjustments.) That works out to +55 ranged dmg for sneak attacks. I normally throw something in to increase by base to hit by another 2-3.

A normal sneak attack is usually about 110-120 dmg. A crit sneak is 195-220 before bard dong.

That puts a rogue crit up there with a BiS crit from a barbarian or a BiS Wizard burning 3 spells in a round.

In person, Rogue is almost certainly top in damage w a good slider but the dmg difference has been narrowed in recent years.

I am ok w it as is but also understand it makes combat DMing a little harder.

If a replacement to the assassin’s crossbow is dine, I’d recommend making it nightshades but making x3 dmg only on a crit. That makes dmg math easier (just everything x2 or x3 rather than taking out sneak dmg separately.)

Fred

I think token is fine as is. Yes, it potentially does a lot of damage, but overall the rogue still comes in behind a few other classes (at least in the runs I've participated). I don't personally play rogue, but think it's pretty cool when they hit a crit with this.

Within the context that builds are way overpowered, it's fine at high levels of play. As you bring up, the problem is that it creates a perception problem by being the boring option of "no, really, build around this so you can see triple digits", and it's hard to get.

Now, is it any more boring than "barbarian, run Averon's", "whoever, run Thor's", or whatever even though this is an UR and not a legendary? Probably not.

My issue, given that rogue average damage in empirical data isn't particularly high among classes, with rogue is how pathetic its defenses are. The attention rogue gets with being able to compete adequately in damage obfuscates that the class is the most fragile.

In the realm of defensively inhibited classes when played in typical configurations: Since wizards don't need to hit anything, they can just jack CON to become resilient when they aren't killing themselves and don't require as many slots to do their thing. Polydruids heal and have great saves.

I don't see a point in creating better weapon options for rogues than their current best option nor bothering at this point to nerf their best option. I see making more effort to give rogues some interesting defensive options, options that do create tradeoffs with damage output just as there should be such tradeoffs with every class.

Now, I come from this with a perspective of a player who cares about mechanics in VTD. If crits happen all of the time in in person play, I don't really care. Crits in in person play are more exciting as it required people to physically do something, as well that we seem to ignore that crits cannibalize each other when there's a board. If lots of people crit every combat because the group slides well, that's fine as it demonstrates player skill, something that should be rewarded. If it makes in person combat too easy, well, all combat is too easy when builds are more powerful than challenge level, and it's much easier to use self nerfing tactics with in person play than it is in VTD.

Fred K wrote: ...That works out to +55 ranged dmg for sneak attacks....

A normal sneak attack is usually about 110-120 dmg. A crit sneak is 195-220 before bard dong.

Can you explain this more?

If your ranged damage is +55, your weapon will add +6.33, and your sneak attack bonus will add +20.

That would give 85 for a normal sneak attack, not 110-120.

Are you assuming the build has the Viper Strike set bonus and therefore gets the sneak bonus doubled on a critical hit?

I don't think there is a particular problem with the token.

I would say if there is one UR that either:

A. Is causing nearly all BiS builds to go in a certain direction, that is different than the direction they would go without it.

B. Is warping design of other tokens around it

Then that is probably bad and that UR should probably be changed or banned.

I'll leave it to rogue players to say if this is happening.

With the direction of Savage Sword I don't think Assassin's crossbow is nearly as far out of balance as it previously was.

I think the route we should go in is a small debuff (*3 only on natural 20s) and then create a transmute path to give that ability back at relic. I think this crit path should very specifically NOT have any keen effect to make crit expanding items actually useful in some builds. Putting keen on every big weapon is just making those tokens super irrelevant.

Slightly edited idea because I re-pasted last years idea without considering the savage sword bump in weapon effectiveness:

---

+2 Deadshot's Crossbow, part of Deadshot set, x3 damage on Natural 20s
+3 Deadshot's Crossbow of Sniping, part of Deadshot set, x3 damage on all crits
+5 Deadshot's Crossbow of Assassination, part of Deadshot set, x3 damage on all crits, ignore crit immunities
Only usable by bards, rogues, rangers, fighters
D10 Damage Wheel

Note: Add a 4 Piece deadshot bonus maybe, either +2 to hit or +2 damage, or if TPTB don't wish to add to set bonuses, give the Crossbow just a extra +2 to hit than it otherwise would have to fit with set theme

I’m reasonably sure that I’ve shared my opinion on this before, so I’ll keep it short.

The +2 Assassin’s Crossbow is fine.

It does not “need” a nerf.

Rationale: A rogue using this crossbow needs to devote one eye slot to Lenses of Agility or Lenses of Vital Insight in order to sneak attack with a ranged weapon. The bow is only +2 to hit, meaning that the rogue is giving up a to-hit bonus of +2 from Io’s or +3 from Thor’s (thrown). Rogues can sneak attack a maximum of 2 times per combat. The triple crit feature doesn’t apply to the sneak attack damage bonus (15/20), just weapon damage, base damage, and bardsong damage (if applicable). Finally, my response to “what if the rogue is using Raphiel’s and could trigger the triple crit on 17-20, not just 20” is “a rogue wearing a legendary neck is probably wearing a lot of other orange/green tokens, and I’m just not that worried that a NM/Epic player has a chance to do 100-150 damage in up to two rounds each combat when NM/Epic monks do that much damage almost every round.”

We recently discussed this on discord, but my general feeling is that the crossbow needs the nerf badly. If we want to take into account class balance, Rogue is higher than it should be relative to other classes.

I would like to see more instances of one particular room feature in a past VTD.

In that room, you ability to damage the creature with a weapon was dependent on the plus of your weapon.

I would also like to see damage reduction modifiers individually apply just once in a room to avoid prolonged combats.

But we can't always get what we want....

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Fred K wrote: ...That works out to +55 ranged dmg for sneak attacks....

A normal sneak attack is usually about 110-120 dmg. A crit sneak is 195-220 before bard dong.

Can you explain this more?

If your ranged damage is +55, your weapon will add +6.33, and your sneak attack bonus will add +20.

That would give 85 for a normal sneak attack, not 110-120.

Are you assuming the build has the Viper Strike set bonus and therefore gets the sneak bonus doubled on a critical hit?

My mistake, it should be 80-90 dmg on a non-crit. 195+ on a crit.

Interestingly, the assassin’s crossbow is much more balanced in VTD than in-person. In-person, 17’s are pretty easy (most of the time.) I tracked my in-person crit percentage at my most recent 3 cons (including Grind). Of 31 rounds of combat, I critted 24 times. I don’t consider myself an amazing slider - I’d say I am better than average but not in the same class as a few others I know (who could easily be 90% or better crits.)

I think big damage builds will fit better when mytic difficulty comes out. Our challenge today is the variance in builds for a “reasonable” nightmare build go from +15 dmg to +40 dmg before epic difficulty seems obvious (my builds are more on the epic side.)

If you assume dmg bonuses of +0 to +8 for normal, +5 to +15 for hardcore, +10 to +30 for NM, +25 to +50 for epic, and +50 or more for mythic - dungeon design and group balance are easier to work through. Similarly, have save ranges of 2/3rds of those figures for each level and you are pretty good. It would resemble a pretty straightforward progression chart that you could keep increasing virtually indefinitely.

Fred