TOPIC: Saves needed vs. Boss Monsters?

Assume a nasty boss monster with save-or-die attacks as its primary attack mode.

*Roughly* what are typical DCs players need to roll to make their saving throws at the Hardcore or Nightmare levels in VTD?

I'm trying to decide how much more I need to buff my team's saves to have an acceptable chance of surviving such a fight.

Thank you.

I'd expect HC 25, NM 30 to be roughly the norm.

Now, this hasn't been the case for a while, could argue that Death Knight's every third round Cloudkill was not primary because it wasn't every round and Basilisk's petrification was just one of multiple attacks. Then, maybe the increase in saves tokens, primarily beads exploding, means future thresholds increase to compensate.

I wouldn't normally expect anything besides Fort to be save or die. Also, worried about blind run or if you know the dungeon? I stopped caring about saves in 4ABC as I ran Hood of Reflection constantly after it became available.

Thank you, Ian! That was VERY helpful.

I'm planning for blind runs.

My rule of thumb if you never want to fail a save is 18 on Normal, 22 on Hardcore, 24 on nightmare, and having a questor's charm of luck equipped.

Those stats were drawn from several years of modules, however that would have been in the 2012 - 2018 range, so monsters may have gotten tougher since then.

Blackthorn's save DC in Infernal redoubt from 2019-2020 was:

Normal: 18
Hardcore: 22
Nightmare: 28

A failed save on HC or NM was basically death (rather your character just attacked party members for the rest of combat - maybe you could have been saved with Scroll Mind Blank or other things that de-possess you).