TOPIC: Let's Talk Epic Stats

My group is getting ready for our first epic run, likely to be V5C. I'm seeing some crazy numbers thrown around here and there that I think are actually overkill (ex, +30 hit, and +30 saves).

Realistically, what do we need to target for hit, damage, saves, and AC?

My assumptions:
Sliders need approximately +20 hit. Factor in 5th level Bard, Legendary Lute, Bless, and Prayer, and that will net an additional +7, meaning in V5 we hit all monsters on a 15 or better. On any room with AC 40 or higher, the melee characters can use Tultz to drink a Potion of Zealot Brew to bring that down a little more, and ranged characters can drink a Cat's Grace.

Saves should be OK at +20 to +25. We'll get an extra +1 from Necklacke of the Songbird, and can use a scroll of Bolster Allies where necessary (+2 fort). Of the other saves, Ref save usually only deals extra damage, so it can be on the lower end, and will save can be negated by the skull once.

Damage, I don't know what should be the target. My assumption is that this is an area where the party is OK, but we have a wide range (Barb at +44, dwarf fighter at +12).

For AC, there aren't a ton of direct attacks and I don't know what the monster +hit is. Our Dwarf Fighter is running AC 42, and we don't really have much of a way to make it higher, so its probably as high as we are going to get.

For healing, I ran as the only healer in the last 2 nightmare runs, and +25 healing was plenty when mixed with Soothe Wounds from the bard. Generally only used cure minor wounds 3-4 times.

Any other thoughts out there?

Your party seems ready for epic.

I normally shoot for minimum 20s in everything (hit, damage, saves, spell damage, heals) whenever I'm building a char for epic. Obviously the higher you can get all of those numbers, the better. This is before bardsong/songbird/bless/etc which I feel are very important at epic. On those 42 ac rooms, 20 to hit with all the bonuses means you are missing almost 3 out of 4 times or greater. Just keep that in mind.

Normally when we do challenge runs on epic, we are pretty protected at 40-45 AC, and are completely untouchable at NM with those ACs when the monster is attacking us.

One caveat: Epic is supposed to be challenging. Often the DM messes with us. I feel that by asking for epic, you are asking for a challenge, and giving the DM a bit more wiggle room with messing with you. Personally I love that, but know it's not everyone's cup of tea.

Figure some monsters will have +20 to hit.

Typical class ACs in my Epic play: 17, 14, 15. Sure, can have high AC when it doesn't affect important stats. The time that I ran paladin and Guarded the bard, whose AC was 40, was amusing but it wasn't terribly successful.

But, anyway, the numbers you mention are in line with our Epic play. Unless doing something like Tank Platoon runs or whatever, main reason we don't win on regular Epic is because of bad decisions and slow play, not because of too little power.

For damage, figure spellcaster damage in the +25-35 range. Healing +20+. Regular physical attacks doing 40+ unless like bard tossing a hammer in the 30's. But, it's the massive damage of barb, monk, ranger, rogue, and spell bursts that speed things up fast enough to wade through like 800hp with DR of boss monsters.

DR for monsters can be up to 20, which makes some numbers look pretty weird. "I don't think the app is working right."

I think you're ok with the stats you mention. You might want to be closer to the +25 on saves. I remember needing over 30 on some of the saves and failure can range from just another 12 points of damage to instant death (or worse if they mess with you).

Normally, I'm running FOP Cat and FOP Dragon. I'm usually higher on reflex saves, i can ignore one fail Will save with psychic powers and one Fortitude fail with FOP Dragon. Cat lets me get one extra reroll. I also throw in Questor's. I don't fail many saves with all of that, but have still failed once or twice.

All the advice given upthread is solid.

A fair amount of this is going to depend on party comp. When my group did its first Epic run, we had a Relic-level Paladin whose first words on entering a room were "I GUARD THE MONK AND WIZARD", a BIS Dwarf Fighter that was close to untouchable AC wise that used his taunt every combat, and enough heals around the party to manage any cleanup should things go wrong. We still wound up burning a ton of potions just to keep up // make sure our healers could pop big spells mid-combat if needed.

The guidelines I used while theorycrafting what my group needed for Epic:

- 10/10 CoA // CoAS, or some other way of boosting initiative, is super important. The extra turn not taking damage is worth lots of other stats.

- your worst save should hopefully be a 50/50 at minimum against expected boss stats (cribbed from analyzing prior dungeons and adding another +5). Saves were the second most important thing I looked at going into Epic, as (like Dave noted above) the consequences for failing a save can be dire.

- AC is an effective dump stat for several classes. Sure, pick it up if it's going to help, but for most boss encounters, you need an AC of 25+ to start improving your chances of not being hit if targeted, with 35AC being a good target for a 50/50 miss chance against the boss. It can take a lot to get close to that level for some classes: as Ian said, low ACs on some party members is very normal. At the end of the day, I think our Monk and Wizard would only avoid damage on a nat 1 (thus the Paladin guard), our Barbarian and Druid could dodge some low numbers but were still quite vulnerable, and the rest of the party has solid ACs.

- I factored +4/+4 Bardsong being always on into all our considerations, as our group has a super stacked Bard with his class legendary. I (again) targeted slid attack rolls to be at a 50/50 (assuming hitting the 10 or better on the board). In VTD, it's all random: in person, if you have ace sliders and a good sliding order // bumping strat, you can get away with worse, so long as your high damage dealers can pull it off.

- HP, and to a slightly lesser extent DR, is what I looked at after making sure we could dodge saves, ACs were sorted on most of our classes, and we could all hit. Monsters on Epic will CHUNK your health: 20+ damage hits, with unresistable damage types, are the norm. If you're getting hit by a "normal" damage type, assume it will be higher, as I believe Epic "design" expects most party members to have SRoEC. I assumed that we'd spend enough healing to get everyone topped off between rooms, and then it was just a game of breakpoints: how many worst-case attacks can I take, without healing, in a single room and still be active? The majority of my party could take 2 or 3 hits from the boss and still be able to swing in the next round (risking death, obviously).

- Death avoidance and resurrection are nice to haves. I didn't put too much priority on them. We kept them on our main damage dealers.

- Wizard specific (as this was my class): Nuke when you can, but save as many recasts as possible for Maze. Getting your party a round of damage and a fresh chance to win initiative can be a lifesaver, as each round you win init on is one less round the enemy will do damage to you. Either be smart about your spell types or change as much to Magic Missile as possible, if you're doing single-target. I personally ran as a wand wizard, and used wands with Piercing damage as often as possible, and brought a couple of AoE wands with me in case I needed some wide damage in rooms. I have no knowledge or comment to provide on the Wizard legendary.

Endgame wrote: My group is getting ready for our first epic run, likely to be V5C. I'm seeing some crazy numbers thrown around here and there that I think are actually overkill (ex, +30 hit, and +30 saves).

Realistically, what do we need to target for hit, damage, saves, and AC?

My assumptions:
Sliders need approximately +20 hit. Factor in 5th level Bard, Legendary Lute, Bless, and Prayer, and that will net an additional +7, meaning in V5 we hit all monsters on a 15 or better. On any room with AC 40 or higher, the melee characters can use Tultz to drink a Potion of Zealot Brew to bring that down a little more, and ranged characters can drink a Cat's Grace.

Saves should be OK at +20 to +25. We'll get an extra +1 from Necklacke of the Songbird, and can use a scroll of Bolster Allies where necessary (+2 fort). Of the other saves, Ref save usually only deals extra damage, so it can be on the lower end, and will save can be negated by the skull once.

Damage, I don't know what should be the target. My assumption is that this is an area where the party is OK, but we have a wide range (Barb at +44, dwarf fighter at +12).

For AC, there aren't a ton of direct attacks and I don't know what the monster +hit is. Our Dwarf Fighter is running AC 42, and we don't really have much of a way to make it higher, so its probably as high as we are going to get.

For healing, I ran as the only healer in the last 2 nightmare runs, and +25 healing was plenty when mixed with Soothe Wounds from the bard. Generally only used cure minor wounds 3-4 times.

Any other thoughts out there?

40 AC is really rare to see (but we did see it in V5B) - generally, Epic you need to hit the mid 30s. Assuming you are ok with 50% chance to hit, and the items you mentioned, a +20 to hit is usually good.

Saves - you want most saves around +17-+18 or better and to have a legendary item (Bard instrument or Ava's) to allow for a mulligan. It is ok to have a bad save if you have a couple ways around failing it (psychic power, figurine, etc..) DC's in the 30's are pretty normal for Epic runs.

Healing - when hit, you'll take 20-30 damage (most times) and area effect will be 15-25 damage (usually) unless the effects are paralysis, petrification, etc.. A healer will likely need to do 200-400 points of healing during a run if you aren't winning initiative regularly.

(Related note - winning initiative at Epic is really helpful - Elf Wizard granting +10 in every room and complete sets of CoAS help a lot - most baddies will be at least +15 initiative - sometimes a good deal more.)

Damage output - this really depends. First - if your melee types are hitting and all doing 30-50 damage per hit - you are off to a good start (no, a bard or cleric isn't considered a melee type.) You usually need a spell-caster or two that can do 50+ as well in a round. If you design your party well, the damage becomes easy deliver. For example - A barbarian with Fury who is hitting on 5 or better against an AC of 35 getting an MEC boost of a 3rd level spell from a wizard will deliver an additional 80 damage on that crit. Monks stunning is huge. Having the wizard go last and cast lesser maze a single opponent after you deliver solid damage against it keeps your party from taking hits if they win initiative again.

AC's - I wish it weren't the case, but ACs don't matter in True Dungeon above Normal difficulty with only rare exceptions. Individual characters may get targeted once or twice per run. Paladin and Dw Fighter are the only two where it matters and only a little even there. If their AC is less than around the mid 30's, they will get hit on Epic on most attacks. AC 40 means they rarely get hit. With that said, the current mechanics encourage you to trade AC for any other benefit if you can get it. For example, Cranston's hat rather than a helm means another eye slot which can improve your to-hit, etc.. Yes - this last dungeon had something that attacked every character. This happens in maybe 2 rooms per year. In the most recent run, that risk could be completely negated with a 2021 common potion. Shadowskin is also common for the squishier members of the party

(I do hope mechanics change regarding AC so being a wizard with an AC of 16 means real risk and AC isn't ignored.)

Remember - worst case, characters drop. Raising them isn't that hard. Pretty much design around winning against a single very difficult combat (usually, but not always, room 7) for most dungeons and you'll be fine.

Fred

Fred K wrote:

Endgame wrote:
AC's - I wish it weren't the case, but ACs don't matter in True Dungeon above Normal difficulty with only rare exceptions. Individual characters may get targeted once or twice per run. Paladin and Dw Fighter are the only two where it matters and only a little even there. If their AC is less than around the mid 30's, they will get hit on Epic on most attacks. AC 40 means they rarely get hit. With that said, the current mechanics encourage you to trade AC for any other benefit if you can get it. For example, Cranston's hat rather than a helm means another eye slot which can improve your to-hit, etc.. Yes - this last dungeon had something that attacked every character. This happens in maybe 2 rooms per year. In the most recent run, that risk could be completely negated with a 2021 common potion. Shadowskin is also common for the squishier members of the party

Agreed. Shadowskin is the way to go for squishies.

NightGod wrote:

Fred K wrote:
AC's - I wish it weren't the case, but ACs don't matter in True Dungeon above Normal difficulty with only rare exceptions. Individual characters may get targeted once or twice per run. Paladin and Dw Fighter are the only two where it matters and only a little even there. If their AC is less than around the mid 30's, they will get hit on Epic on most attacks. AC 40 means they rarely get hit. With that said, the current mechanics encourage you to trade AC for any other benefit if you can get it. For example, Cranston's hat rather than a helm means another eye slot which can improve your to-hit, etc.. Yes - this last dungeon had something that attacked every character. This happens in maybe 2 rooms per year. In the most recent run, that risk could be completely negated with a 2021 common potion. Shadowskin is also common for the squishier members of the party

Agreed. Shadowskin is the way to go for squishies.

I’ve not been getting hit with much that I can actually shadowskin. Usually it’s everyone takes X cold damage from yeti, or everyone take Y damage and reflex save for half. For the time being, I’ve replaced shadowskin for lucky cloak. 1 additional save and an always functional 5hp.

As for AC, only our dwarf Fighter has an appreciable amount. Everyone else seems to be in the 20s.

There was a time when I endeavored to have tons of HP because of various reasons.

I don't pay a whole lot of attention to HP anymore. In Saturday's Epic DD (EDD), with the CoAS bonus, I was still running around with 49hp.

And, yet, pretty much the only time I ever remember Shadowskin is ... when other people use theirs, I mean, when hits for 20/30/40 are coming right for me (... and other people use theirs).

One of the features of that EDD run was that all five of us used Shadowskin in the same room, where nobody ended up taking any damage (from the monster).

I can see Lucky over Shadowskin at times. I think high AC is one of those times. My high AC builds usually use head slot on silly helm, which means not getting +5-6 Will save from that slot. So, scraping another save elsewhere has added value.

So, the more damage the party can deal, the less everything else matters. I tend to be more interested in defense than offense, so I'm constantly dropping +2dmg tokens for better saves. Also, even though not every save actually matters - some only do damage, for instance - still try to be able to make every Fort or Will save.

Ian Lee wrote: There was a time when I endeavored to have tons of HP because of various reasons.

I don't pay a whole lot of attention to HP anymore. In Saturday's Epic DD (EDD), with the CoAS bonus, I was still running around with 49hp.

And, yet, pretty much the only time I ever remember Shadowskin is ... when other people use theirs, I mean, when hits for 20/30/40 are coming right for me (... and other people use theirs).

One of the features of that EDD run was that all five of us used Shadowskin in the same room, where nobody ended up taking any damage (from the monster).

I can see Lucky over Shadowskin at times. I think high AC is one of those times. My high AC builds usually use head slot on silly helm, which means not getting +5-6 Will save from that slot. So, scraping another save elsewhere has added value.

So, the more damage the party can deal, the less everything else matters. I tend to be more interested in defense than offense, so I'm constantly dropping +2dmg tokens for better saves. Also, even though not every save actually matters - some only do damage, for instance - still try to be able to make every Fort or Will save.

I used to not really care about HP, but then the Wiz class legendary came out and now it's basically tied with spell damage for importance.