TOPIC: Damage Dealt vs. Build Cost

I don't want to pick on Arcanist, but his post prompted me to think about it. He had mentioned a "Wizard Tax" for TrueGrind because the Wizard has to burn more consumables than other classes. Also we have seen discussions on which classes deal the most damage, etc. I was curious how the cost of the build is correlated to damage output and/or consumable use, broken down by class.

I calculated the "cost" by assuming $3500 for the Eldritch set, $1500 for a Legendary/CoA, $250 for an UR volunteer token or Relic, and $100 for a UR or rare volunteer token on Draco-Lich's Claw Charm. It's designed to be an approximation, not an exact number. Arcanist and I discussed via PM and he suggested this scheme (more or less) compared to using current market prices for every single token. Arguably we should adjust RoSP and SRoEC down to what it actually cost originally rather than its overall value now (I'm currently valuing the pair at $3500, but really you could value the pair at 11 URs plus some trade goods, or say $1500 for the pair which is what they cost if you collected all of it).

I wanted to use real-world builds which I originally looked in Matthew Hayward's great spreadsheet for, but I found in at least some cases it wasn't a very realistic build (like every class equipping the Legendary Fire Giant's Girdle). So I'd be interesting in collecting some other optimized but realistic builds and figuring out how the cost changes for different classes. If you want to post your build (or your ideal build) for the real world, ideally with colors by rarity, I'll update this post and add a table, etc.

I'm wondering if Matthew Hayward would be willing to run some of these builds through his DPS calculations?

Results so far (click left column for build):

Build	Total "Cost"	Dmg Only "Cost"
Kirk Ranger	$18,950	$11,100
Kirk Bard	$16,700	$5,050
Matthew Wizard	$10,850	$3,850
Arcanist Wizard	$10,450	$4,000
darkangel866 Ranger	$8,350	$5,200
Raven Rogue	$6,550	$1,900

My Ranger build as of 2015:

Crown of Might
Lenses of Clear Sight
Earcuff of Orbits
Stu-Pendous Pendant
Dragonhide Armor
Mithral Gauntlets
+1 Mighty Longbow
Cloak of Shadowskin
Viper Strike Shirt
Charm of Brooching
Ioun Stone Onyx Cube
Garnet Cube
Topaz Trilliant
Pouch of Tulz
Druegar's Death Die
Figurine of Power: Owl
Cavadar Tooth #1

Bracers of Fire
Ioun Stone Iridescent Spindle
Bracers of Fire
Censer of Sacrifice
Lamp of the Marid

Icecrag Hero's Earcuff
+3 Viper Strike Fang
+3 Viper Strike Fang
Ring of Improved Evasion
Greater Cloak of Destiny
Supreme Ring of Elemental Command
Girdle of Frost Giant Strength
Draco Lich Claw Charm
Charm of Avarice
Rod of 7 Parts
Greater Alchemist Pouch
Minotaur Horn of Alert
Horn of Blasting

Archer's Buckler
Lamp of the Efreeti

Just under 10k for my build is my estimation.

Kirk Bauer wrote: I'm wondering if Matthew Hayward would be willing to run some of these builds through his DPS calculations?

Sure, but the procedure for non-spellcasters is super simple:

For each puck they player can slide:

• Take the characters +damage (mostly from the character sheet, but at the UR+ level add 2 for Pouch of Tulz+Potion Bull's Strength)
• Add it to the average damage of their weapon
• Multiply by the expected number of rounds of combat
• Multiply it by the expected hit %

For spellcasters I just assume they cast all their damage spells before engaging in melee (even if that is a damage reduction). I don't assume use of the Cabal Set (although may have to change in 2016 with the Amulet of the Savant). I assume Mad Evoker's Charm is used on the best 5 auto hit spells. I ignore any "as a scroll" boosters / copiers etc. as that is a big damage reducer at the UR and up level.

I don't add Bard song to anything.

I might suggest only counting things that boost your damage in the "cost" calculation, otherwise a build with Ta' Mors, Roland's Ring, Pharacus' Cloak, etc. is going to look really expensive - but none of those tokens boost your damage.

Kirk Bauer wrote: (I'm currently valuing the pair at $4500, but really you could value the pair at 11 URs plus some trade goods, or say

Does that mean you'd be a buyer at $4,499, or that you'd be a seller at $4,501, or both?

I ask because I think this figure is around $1,000 too high.

Kirk Bauer wrote: I wanted to use real-world builds which I originally looked in Matthew Hayward's great spreadsheet for, but I found in at least some cases it wasn't a very realistic build (like every class equipping the Legendary Fire Giant's Girdle).

I agree that part may not be the most realistic for Druid, Wizard, Elf Wizard, but if you drop it their damage totals decline even further. It's a pretty important BiS token that matters in melee builds though.

There are builds in there at common, rare, ultra rare, and BiS - I think that item is BiS if what you are trying to do is deal damage.

My Rogue Build:

Nightshade +2 Shortsword
Ektdar's Tinkering Tool
Lenses of Vital Insight
Earcuff of Orbits
Stu-Pendous Pendant
Dragonhide Armor
Mithral Gauntlets
+1 Mighty Shortbow
Shirt of the Underdark
Boots of the North Wind
Charm of Synergy
Ioun: Onyx Cube
Ioun: Quicksilver Cube
Ioun: Topaz Trilliant
Ioun: Sapphire Prism
Pouch of Tulz
Druegar's Death Die
Figurine of Power: Panther

Hood of Elvenkind
Brawler's Mug
Bracers of Frost
Ioun: Onyx Sphere
Ioun: Beryl Prism
Ioun: Iridescent Spindle
Lamp of the Marid

Ring of Heroism
Ring of Frost
Greater Cloak of Destiny
Girdle of Frost Giant Strength
Draco Lich Claw Charm
Charm of Avarice
Rod of 7 Parts
Greater Alchemist Pouch
Horn of Blasting

Masterwork Thieves Tools
Lamp of the Efreeti

Haven't done the math on how much that's worth.

Matthew Hayward wrote: I might suggest only counting things that boost your damage in the "cost" calculation, otherwise a build with Ta' Mors, Roland's Ring, Pharacus' Cloak, etc. is going to look really expensive - but none of those tokens boost your damage.

I thought about that before and figured it would be problematic. But I tried it out and modified the first post. It is pretty challenging. For example, do I include the Eldritch Set for the Ranger? RoSP gives +1 STR / +1 DEX which affect damage. But what about the SRoEC? Well that gives the Ranger Lvl5, but a Ring of Heroism would do that for a lot less money, but in the real world why would you use the RoSP and not the SRoEC if it would give you a level.

I didn't include the Eldritch Set for the Wizard or my Bard build because it doesn't affect the Wizard's spell damage, and for the Bard it barely makes a difference, but does to some degree.

I'd like to see what a fully maxed-out Wizard build would be. So far it seems pretty obvious that, assuming Ranger does more damage than the Wizard, the Ranger is likely spending more money on tokens to make that happen.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: (I'm currently valuing the pair at $4500, but really you could value the pair at 11 URs plus some trade goods, or say

Does that mean you'd be a buyer at $4,499, or that you'd be a seller at $4,501, or both?

I ask because I think this figure is around $1,000 too high.

OK, I dropped it to $3500 for the pair.

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I might suggest only counting things that boost your damage in the "cost" calculation, otherwise a build with Ta' Mors, Roland's Ring, Pharacus' Cloak, etc. is going to look really expensive - but none of those tokens boost your damage.

I thought about that before and figured it would be problematic. But I tried it out and modified the first post. It is pretty challenging. For example, do I include the Eldritch Set for the Ranger? RoSP gives +1 STR / +1 DEX which affect damage. But what about the SRoEC? Well that gives the Ranger Lvl5, but a Ring of Heroism would do that for a lot less money, but in the real world why would you use the RoSP and not the SRoEC if it would give you a level.

I didn't include the Eldritch Set for the Wizard or my Bard build because it doesn't affect the Wizard's spell damage, and for the Bard it barely makes a difference, but does to some degree.

I'd like to see what a fully maxed-out Wizard build would be. So far it seems pretty obvious that, assuming Ranger does more damage than the Wizard, the Ranger is likely spending more money on tokens to make that happen.

Well - Monk, Ranger, Cleric, Druid, and Wizards get to equip 1 more Legendary (Ring of Focus, 2nd Weapon) than other classes - so they have an edge in "spending lots of money to deal damage."

But yeah - figuring out what to count in the calculations is complicated by the fact that Druid and Ranger both get damage boosts from the Eldritch 2 piece, and melee classes get damage boosts from the RoSP (or, they could depending on whether their strength would go down a rank if they unequipped it).


If the goal of the enterprise is to figure out what class has the lowest "cost to damage" ratio, we're going about it all wrong - the right way to calculate that number would involve tokens like the Thrall belt, not Surtr's girdle of fire giant strength... a $10,000 build doesn't deal 100 times the damage of an $100 build.

Here's my Wizard Build (opinions vary on the Cabal Set):

Drake's +5 Staff of Focus

Mighty Sling
Hat of Intellect
Goggle of Serpent Sight
Earcuff of Orbits

Icecrag Hero's Earcuff



Pharacus' Greater Cloak of Destiny

Shirt of the Underdark
Robe of the Arch-Mage
Bracers of Fast Fitness
Gloves of Glory

Relsa's Ring of Supreme Focus

Supreme Ring of Elemental Command

Ring of Greater Focus

Viper Strike Belt

Boots of the Marauder

Ioun Stone Quicksilver Cube

Ioun Stone Beryl Prism

Ioun Stone Sapphire Prism
Ioun Stone Amethyst Ovoid
Ioun Stone Topaz Trilliant

Ioun Stone Garnet Sphere

Ioun Stone Garnet Cube

Sea Dragon Scroll Tube
Rod of Seven Parts (Complete)

Greater Alchemist Pouch
Druegar's Death Die
Pouch of Tulz
Lamp of the Efreeti
Lamp of the Marid
6th Player Level Bonus
1 Tooth of Cavadar (# equipped)

Charm of Brooching

Charm of Enlightenment

Charm of Heroism

Questor's Charm of Luck
Mad Evoker's Charm
Charm of Avarice

Kirk Bauer wrote: I didn't include the Eldritch Set for the Wizard or my Bard build because it doesn't affect the Wizard's spell damage, and for the Bard it barely makes a difference, but does to some degree.

It is tricky. The Ro7P adds +1DEX which, with other items, could increase hit. SRoEC adds retribution damage for a class often targeted for an attack but more importantly the set bonus negates spell resistance which can be pretty important. It may be almost a necessity for Wizards to have the Eldritch set just to avoid the resistance issue.

Trying to figure the cost may really come down to what are the class-defining and priciest must-have items?

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is; if Monk and Ranger are the highest damage-dealing builds, are they also the most expensive? Ideally we'd come up with the max damage builds and then figure out each cost, divide it out, and figure out how the classes differ.