TOPIC: Discussion of Classes

posts often talk about certain classes being too powerful, or doing things they shouldnt be able to, or some even not being special enough. i would like to have a discussion on what each class should do/be/have. and we can discuss if what we list is fair/balanced and what can/should be done about it (either with tokens or the next character card edits).

i will start by listing each class and what i think makes that class unique, what it should be best at, good at, capable of, and not be able to do at all. if something looks off, make a suggestion/discuss; this is a long post, so i have probably missed something/put something down wrong.

Barbarian:
unique: nothing
best at: dealing damage with a single weapon. soaking lots of damage (ie. high HP). high fort.
good at: hitting things in melee. ranged damage (by throwing...weapons, rocks, dwarves).
capable of: hitting with ranged.
not capable of: high AC, will. spells.

Bard:
unique: bard song, bardic lore.
best at: nothing
good at: utility magic
capable of: everything; melee, ranged, offensive spells, defense spells, healing spells, decent AC, HP, saves.
not capable of: nothing

Cleric:
unique: turn undead.
best at: healing spells. AC (shares this 'best at' with others).
good at: helping party. offensive magic vs evil.
capable of: melee combat. HP.
not capable of: ranged combat.

Druid:
unique: polymorph.
best at: nothing.
good at: offensive spells, healing spells, melee damage when polymorphed.
capable of: melee to-hit when polymorphed. utility magic, defensive spells. decent AC*. boosting HP (to represent health, particularly when polymorphing).
not capable of: ranged combat.

Fighter & Dwarf:
unique: nothing (5th level gives combat abilities)
best at: hitting in melee, AC (shares this title). weapon versatility (ie. has access to almost all special weapons with a variety of abilities)
good at: damage in melee. hitting with ranged. good HP.
capable of:
not capable of: spells.

Monk:
unique: all sorts of special abilities. does not require tokens.
best at: saves.
good at: melee combat (damage 2nd only to ranger if both fists hit). ranged to-hit.
capable of: decent AC (at cost of some melee). HP.
not capable of: spells.

Paladin:
unique: guard.
best at: protecting the party (different than cleric who lets them get hurt, then heals them). AC (shares the title). detecting evil. immune disease.
good at: saves. HP.
capable of: melee combat. ranged combat.
not capable of: offense spells, utility spells.

Ranger:
unique: 2-weapon style.
best at: dealing damage (if both melee weapons hit). ranged combat (shares to-hit).
good at: melee to-hit.
capable of: decent AC, HP. (minor healing/defense spells at 5th level)
not capable of: offense spells. utility spells.

Rogue:
unique: treasure chest, backstab, 5th level flank
best at: one-shot kill (ie. backstab damage being highest single weapon damage). ranged to-hit (shared).
good at:
capable of: melee combat. decent AC (if focus on dex).
not capable of: high HP. spells.

Wizard & Elf:
unique:
best at: offense spells.
good at: utility spells.
capable of: defense spells. polymorph.
not capable of: combat, AC, HP. healing spells.




*druid can get a high AC, partly because of the dragonscale set. i think this goes against what the druid should be. and beyond simply not reprinting the set and removing druid from future versions, new tokens could be created especially for the druid in these slots to entice druids to not use it. there is already the coronet of the arch druid to entice druids to give up the helm AND spell-power in order to polymorph. more items to boost polymorph and/or choose between polymorph or spell-casting focus, and away from tanking, would be great for druid.


So, after going through that, my main thoughts are:
1. wizards need something to make them shine. not just small boosts to spells, or items to mitigate their drawback, but something special. unless wizards are happy to just get more of what they have...?
2. rogue needs something...everything is either about the treasure chest, or their first/sneak attack. after that they could hide in the corner. many people playing rogue want to feel like they are getting away with something, what can be done for that?
3. druid is often called out as being too powerful. i think druid is just fine, if the other classes are balanced properly (with that exception of AC above). if you think druid offense spells are too good, lets boost the wizards. too good at healing, boost the cleric. druid should be able to choose which path they want, spellcasting or polymorphing; focus on one and the other should be pushed to minor ability (ie. enough polymorph bonuses and your spellcasting will be available, but not amazing).
4. Bard needs some love. everything for the bard is either based on the bardsong, or is meant for another class and just happens to also be usable by bard. there needs to be more that really shows that bard can be a jack-of-all-trades. some classes are versatile, bard should be the master of versatility.
5. i would like to see a push to make barbarian stand out as the damage dealing, hit soaking beast he should be. right now, he just feels like a low-AC fighter with a few tweaked stats.

kurtreznor wrote: Barbarian:
unique: nothing

They're the only ones that have inherent Damage Reduction. I think one could also argue Rage is unique.

My opinions:

I usually play druid because I gave up on wizard, my preferred class. Sadly, anything the wizard can do, the druid can do better, and the druid can do lots of things the wizard can't do. The druid spirit bowl overlaps the rogue skill. The druid can be a very effective melee fighter and tank as you said. Polymorph hasn't been that useful yet, although I'm hoping that time will come.

The wizard needs more spells, more spell power, and more opportunity to use the spells. The wizard does not need better melee abilities.

The rogue needs a few class specific items to fill weak slots. I like the idea of a stealth skill, that when effective, allows the rogue a second backstab on round 3 of combat, perhaps provided by a UR hood. Black rogue assassin's leather armor would be cool too.

The bard could use a few more good tokens not related to bard song, although I do like the pantaloons of dancing that would enhance the bard song effect slightly if the bard dances. I like that for the barbarian too as comic relief. Our bard currently uses the mithral set, which is likely to never see use as a set again and widseth's lute.

The fighter has the dread sword, which is unique and cool, but could also use a few more class specific tokens. The fighter has alot of good choices for slots and no glaring weaknesses.

The cleric has a good supply of class specific tokens. They can fight ranged with the sling, which has a UR version. No glaring weaknesses

The ranger gets to slide two pucks. No glaring weaknesses.

The barbarian has some cool weapons. I don't recall any other class specific tokens. I agree that the barbarian should be strongest and most destructive. No glaring weaknesses.

The paladin has their fair share of unique skills and good token selection. No glaring weaknesses.

The monk has a few unique tokens and lots of unique skills. I don't know enough about this one.

The class most in need of a boost is the wizard. Our wizard is semi-retired.

The rogue could use some more uniqueness. Our rogue is geared for melee.

The druid needs to cool down for a while. Our druid is geared for melee and is very effective. He only casts when melee is not preferred or for healing. He never polymorphs.

Clearly everyone will have different opinions on this. Personally I don't agree that the Druid is overpowered, he is good at Melee but not as good as the Fighter classes and doesn't have access to the best Fighter armor/weapons (Dragonscale set is totally outclassed by Templar Set), can heal but has fewer healing spells than a Cleric, can do magical damage but not as many damage spells as a Wizard. I think the Druid is a good jack-of-all trades as designed.

I also don't think the Wizard is underpowered. There are more Wizard-specific tokens than for most other classes. The Wizard class will get a huge boost after next year for those with the two-item Eldritch Set as their spells become immune to both spell resistance and damage resistance. Our Wizard does major damage via spells to the monsters in our run, at least as much as most of our melee classes. I'm seriously considering switching one of our melee classes for a second Wizard character after next year, the only thing that will stop me is if we don't have enough party members wanting to play spellcasters.

I do agree that it would be best to try to design the token sets to keep the classes distinct instead of having them bleed into each other.

disbeeleaf, would you mind sharing your druid build? i'm curious what a properly geared up druid would look like...our group's is not nearly as powerful as what it sounds like is possible...

I'm exhausted sitting in PHL airport trying to get home tonight, but I will tell you what I can recall.

head - dragonscale helmet
ear 1 - earcuff of wind
ear 2 -
eyes -
neck - horn of plenty
ring 1 - riches
ring 2 - supreme elemental
bracer - +3 mithral
glove -
body - dragonscale
back - Pharacus destiny
weapon - keen scimitar
shield - dragonscale
belt - frost giant
boots - north wind or might

charms - good fortune, dragonheart,

I am forgetting stones

awesome. thanks for posting what you could remember!

Disbeeleaf wrote: I'm exhausted sitting in PHL airport trying to get home tonight, but I will tell you what I can recall.

head - dragonscale helmet
ear 1 - earcuff of wind
ear 2 -
eyes -
neck - horn of plenty
ring 1 - riches
ring 2 - supreme elemental
body - dragonscale
weapon - keen scimitar
shield - dragonscale
belt - frost giant
boots - north wind or might

charms - good fortune, dragonheart,

I am forgetting stones

Are you playing a 4th level Druid?

kurtreznor wrote: Barbarian:
unique: nothing
best at: dealing damage with a single weapon. soaking lots of damage (ie. high HP). high fort.
good at: hitting things in melee. ranged damage (by throwing...weapons, rocks, dwarves).
capable of: hitting with ranged.
not capable of: high AC, will. spells.

Rage is unique, and should be played on to differentiate Barbarian from the Fighters. I suggest:

Berserker's Charm May Rage 1 additional time/adventure.

and

Charm of Red Rum Each time a monster dies while Barbarian is raging she heals 5 HP.

Bard:
unique: bard song, bardic lore.
best at: nothing
good at: utility magic
capable of: everything; melee, ranged, offensive spells, defense spells, healing spells, decent AC, HP, saves.
not capable of: nothing

To start with, I would add Bard Runes to puzzle rooms. This allows their unique ability to shine, and could be very cool for the player.
The Bard should not be the best Warrior. He is good for buffing the party, and should have things that play into that. Give them (5th level Bards) a Bull's Strength or a Cat's Grace spell. (replace Soundburst . . . they have scrolls for direct damage).

I don't know that they need any tokens right now.

Cleric:
unique: turn undead.
best at: healing spells. AC (shares this 'best at' with others).
good at: helping party. offensive magic vs evil.
capable of: melee combat. HP.
not capable of: ranged combat.

Clerics are very party friendly. Clerics and Bards are the party's best friends. Their spells help other players in more ways than healing. Restore Spell and Restore Power are very team focused. But the 5th level Bard's Soothe Wounds spell overshadows the Cleric. I suggest:

Ioun Stone Diamond Prism May split healing from a spell between two party members.

Druid:
unique: polymorph.
best at: nothing.
good at: offensive spells, healing spells, melee damage when polymorphed.
capable of: melee to-hit when polymorphed. utility magic, defensive spells. decent AC*. boosting HP (to represent health, particularly when polymorphing).
not capable of: ranged combat.

Druids are . . . well overpowered. Spell Surge allows the Druid to overpower the Cleric's healing or the Wizard's offense. They have the 2nd highest saves (tied with the Paladin, and behind the Monk). They get +5 to damage when polymorphed. Their Strength is only 2 pts lower than the Dwarf Fighter's. The list goes on and on (top tier armor, Keen Weapon, Bowl of Broken Druids . . .) If I were ever to solo a dungeon, I would do it as a Druid.

Don't give them anything for some time. And lose Spell Surge.

*druid can get a high AC, partly because of the dragonscale set. i think this goes against what the druid should be. and beyond simply not reprinting the set and removing druid from future versions, new tokens could be created especially for the druid in these slots to entice druids to not use it. there is already the coronet of the arch druid to entice druids to give up the helm AND spell-power in order to polymorph. more items to boost polymorph and/or choose between polymorph or spell-casting focus, and away from tanking, would be great for druid.

What do you make to entice them not to use it? Something that pushes their spells further above the Cleric/Wizards? or a polymorph abilitiy that pushes them above the Fighter/Barbs?

More later.

darkangel866 wrote: I suggest:

Ioun Stone Diamond Prism May split healing from a spell between two party members.

I tend to play a cleric in TD, and that would be a cool ioun stone to have.

the talk of druid being good in melee has me baffled. STR 11 and no inherent melee bonuses unless polymorphed. even the wizard can be just as good at melee with the +str tokens equipped.

in response to barbarian rage being unique, all that does mechanically is add damage. damage is not unique to barbars, they just do it best. ...but yes, playing off the rage with healing when raged or some-such would be cool.

Druid has been the twink class ever since dragonscale has come out and it's never been mitigated since then. It is by far the munchkiniest of the classes and the only people who refuse to admit it are some of those who play the class. Even then it's not absolute since its freaking overpowered bullcrap is so huge that even many druid players with an ounce of integrity admit it.

I just don't understand why we can't see to put a stake through its heart as it continues to get worse. Spirit bowl? 2-item eldritch set bonus level power? WTF. Screw the druid.

If you want to see what a druid can do, take a look at Jim's build since he's already got the eldritch-2 power. That will be available once the rod finishes up but at that point the druid will be able to get to lvl 5 _and_ wear the supreme ring for 1 ring slot sine the rod is slotless. All healing spells are +10 to effect and they still get that spell surge to womp the big bad, which we all know is the only creature that really needs it in the dungeon. #@!%^. If I had a choice whether to play a wizard with 50 different spells it could cast or one single spell that did 150 damage, I'd pick the latter. You cannot underestimate just how superior one big blast is to a bunch of small crap, especially playing nightmare.