TOPIC: ranged vs melee; fair or not? with stats

*all builds below use up to relic level items (no legendaries or artifacts)...and i tended to ignore non-combat boosting items (ie. many of these builds have an open ring slot...which could actually boost saves)*

so, i got a level 5 ranger, ranged build:
+13 to hit
+13 damage
damage wheel (2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9) avg=5.5
25AC
38hp
+14 fort
+19 refx
+11 will


level 4 fighter, melee build:
+12 to hit
+12 damage
damage wheel (3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12) avg=7.5
30AC
35hp
+14fort
+10refx
+10will

so, melee has -1 to hit, +1 net avg damage (-1 stat, +2 weapon wheel), +5AC, -3hp, -9refx, and -1will


or you can go with the glass cannon ranger build...
level 5 ranger, melee build:
+10 to hit
+17 damage
damage wheel main (3,4,5,6,7,8) avg=5.5
damage wheel off (1,2,3,4,5,6) avg=3.5
20AC
43hp
+14fort
+16refx
+10will
*this build does get +14 ranged damage, but drops to +9 to hit with ranged. but most importantly, this build gets to slide TWO melee weapons. so sacrifice accuracy, AC, and refx, but gain some hp and deal massive damage if you hit.


level 4 barbarian, melee damage build:
+12 to hit
+19 damage
damage wheel (4,4,6,8,8,10,12,16) avg=8.5
17AC
45hp
+15fort
+10refx
+10will

and here you just go all-in on hitting for max damage. not as risky as the ranger glass cannon, since your +12 to hit with a single weapon makes it easier, then you deal some crazy damage.


seems fair enough to me; basically, it is a trade-off. you have to decide what you want.
if you have some game-breaking build that proves ranged is better (or still worse), please share it.

kurtreznor wrote: seems fair enough to me; basically, it is a trade-off. you have to decide what you want.

Could you please provide your actual token lists for those builds? That would be very helpful for the analysis!

if you have some game-breaking build that proves ranged is better (or still worse), please share it.

Many encounters restrict melee attacks while very, very few penalize ranged combat.

Did you also factor in ammo and the quiver of anointment?

I'm assuming the ranged builds have the Orb of Might in the melee off hand slot?

I agree with Incognito, the main factor which throws the balance off now is the number of rooms that restrict or ban melee combat, severely penalizing melee builds, while I have yet to see a room that restricts ranged combat. So the Ranged build gets to use its optimized build in every single room, while the melee build is often required to use it's sub-optimized ranged build (including the majority of rooms this year, including both Room 7 Combats).

Added to that, Ranged had absolutely no penalties for cold environment this year, while Melee had multiple cold environment penalties.

I sincerely hope that True Dungeon will stop penalizing melee combat in True Dungeon adventures. As you've shown, there is no need to artificially incentivize people to use ranged combat anymore, you can build a ranged build that is as good or better than melee build.

Mike Steele wrote: I agree with Incognito, the main factor which throws the balance off now is the number of rooms that restrict or ban melee combat, severely penalizing melee builds, while I have yet to see a room that restricts ranged combat. So the Ranged build gets to use its optimized build in every single room, while the melee build is often required to use it's sub-optimized ranged build (including the majority of rooms this year, including both Room 7 Combats).

Added to that, Ranged had absolutely no penalties for cold environment this year, while Melee had multiple cold environment penalties.

I sincerely hope that True Dungeon will stop penalizing melee combat in True Dungeon adventures. As you've shown, there is no need to artificially incentivize people to use ranged combat anymore, you can build a ranged build that is as good or better than melee build.

Excellent summary Mike. Well put.

One thing I noticed is that you compared level 5 rangers to level 4 fighter/barbarian. Seems like apples to oranges. Why nt compare to level 5 fighter/barabarian?

JimC wrote: One thing I noticed is that you compared level 5 rangers to level 4 fighter/barbarian. Seems like apples to oranges. Why nt compare to level 5 fighter/barabarian?

actually, that is because the melee builds were better (in my opinion) without the might items, because they gain very little getting 5th level (mostly hp). and actually, once the new methods of gaining +1 level come out, that will help tip things toward the melee builds a little more, because the ranged builds wont gain much (they can equip something other than +2 scepter and orb of might for melee?...uh, whatever)

So, I was just fiddling with the character generator to build my own lists... and it's buggy as hell again. The 4th level Ranger starts off with a +2 ranged damage bonus that it shouldn't have.. and appears to add a +2 to-hit bonus in place of the bow / sling / crossbow +dmg bonus.

EDIT - And the Sniper Specs were only giving a +2 to hit at the point I added them..

So, given that, here's some stats for my build -

Melee hit: +10
Melee damage: +11
Melee AC: 23
Ranged Hit: +11
Ranged Damage: +16
Ranged AC: 24
Fort Save: +13
Ref Save: +17
Will Save: +14
HP: 38

This is with the Might trio and the Mithril Trio; you can swap the Mithril Gauntlets for the Gloves of Dex for +1 hit / AC / Ref and the cost of -2 damage and the set bonus.

Below is the token list -

Not going to step too far out into this one - I kind of already have a horse in this race, but I REALLY like being able to "reach out and touch someone" preferably - from a nice comfortable distance.

"No need to run - you'll only die tired!" Quote from a bumper sticker on the truck of a retired Marine sniper friend of mine!

My Ranger build is a bit stronger than the one listed above:

base STR (+1/+1)
Crown of Might (+1/+1)
Scepter of Might (+2/+0)
Orb of Might (+1/+1)
Boots of Might (set bonus +0/+2)
Mithral Gauntlets (+2/+2)
Rod Seg 5 (+1/+1) (makes STR even)
Girdle of Frost Giant Strength (+2/+2)(makes STR odd)
Ring of Frost (+0/+2)
Draco Lich Claw Charm (+0/+2)

Bracers of Fire (+0/+2)
Necklace of the Oak (+1/+1)
Melee Runestone (+0/+1)
Wicked Charm (+1/+1) (makes STR even)

This makes total attack bonus +12
This makes total damage bonus +19

Primary avg 5.5 + 19 = 24.5 (min 22/ max 27)
Secondary avg 3.5 +19 = 22.5 (min 20/ max 25)
That is 42 min if both hit and a max of 52 (before crits). I hit with both over 50% of the time in the dungeon (and less in True Grind due to increasing AC over rounds)

I think you were more like 70 or 80% this year. With our top three melee characters in our group we were dealing about 120 damage per round. With spells on top of that we make short work of nearly anything we find. One of our fighters was doing 22-30 damage per strike.

yeah, and this year I was using a sub-par build. Only +8/+14. I thought I would need the Dragonhide set.

darkangel866 wrote: yeah, and this year I was using a sub-par build. Only +8/+14. I thought I would need the Dragonhide set.

Yeah, with the right ioun stones and rings the dragon wasn't a big deal. That's why I'm hoping this new difficulty level will force more strategy, planning, organized play, and good ideas.