TOPIC: Traders Guild discussion: Trade poaching

In the thread about forming guild a topic came up that I think is worth its own discussion. People are complaining about people poaching, ie. You have started discussing selling a token to a person and someone else offers a better price or a different deal stealing your customer.

Realizing we can only make rules for guild members:

1) What are a good set of guidelines for acceptable and unacceptable behavior when someone else has already started talking to a player?

2) If a guild member voilates these guidelines what should be done about it?

3) What is your responsiblity as a guild member is you see a really bad trade being done to a new player?

my thoughts:

1) no stealing trades.

3) if you see an unfair trade in progress, you should inform the inexperienced party what their tokens are worth, and make a suggestion for the person they are talking with to modify the trade to be more fair. if the experienced trader is unwilling to offer a fair trade, you can direct the new person to SOMEONE ELSE to see about getting a better a deal. only if given permission (or perhaps challeneged by the experienced trader) to give the new guy a better deal should you offer to conduct the trade yourself. you should direct the new person to a different experienced trader, which would also help get a third opinion on the value of their tokens.

2) i think you need a private message list for the guild. because first thing is to discuss among all the traders (and offender) and see if you can resolve the issue without creating a scene.

i was going to be in..there just seems like way too many rules going on. I will continue to help and trade as I always have

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: i was going to be in..there just seems like way too many rules going on. I will continue to help and trade as I always have

ditto.

here is a couple of concerns that i have.

1. where will be setting up? if we are in the convention center, gencon frowns on trading. not to mention that the other venders (gamingetc, toad & troll) will be well within their rights to shut us down. unless we are off CC property. jmartin might be able to finagle a "traders area" in a cityscape/tavern.

2. is the fair price for the customer our only concern. who wants to set up shop near me when i have an "everything must go" mind set.

3. is the "buy me a beer" a fair trade?

smakdown wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: i was going to be in..there just seems like way too many rules going on. I will continue to help and trade as I always have

ditto.

here is a couple of concerns that i have.

1. where will be setting up? if we are in the convention center, gencon frowns on trading. not to mention that the other venders (gamingetc, toad & troll) will be well within their rights to shut us down. unless we are off CC property. jmartin might be able to finagle a "traders area" in a cityscape/tavern.

2. is the fair price for the customer our only concern. who wants to set up shop near me when i have an "everything must go" mind set.

3. is the "buy me a beer" a fair trade?

I want to be a customer of yours when you have an "everything must go" mindset

Mike Steele wrote:

smakdown wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: i was going to be in..there just seems like way too many rules going on. I will continue to help and trade as I always have

ditto.

here is a couple of concerns that i have.

1. where will be setting up? if we are in the convention center, gencon frowns on trading. not to mention that the other venders (gamingetc, toad & troll) will be well within their rights to shut us down. unless we are off CC property. jmartin might be able to finagle a "traders area" in a cityscape/tavern.

2. is the fair price for the customer our only concern. who wants to set up shop near me when i have an "everything must go" mind set.

3. is the "buy me a beer" a fair trade?

I want to be a customer of yours when you have an "everything must go" mindset

Agreed. Or, combine #2 and #3 into the same trade?

"Rules" are going to be tricky to make, and to enforce, on this topic.

I agree with what is being discussed in principle: that people shouldn't poach (or interrupt)... that unscrupulous traders taking advantage of newbies is worth interrupting... that the Guild should try to take care of any squabbles internally without making a scene....

But people are always of different minds, especially when the potential for profit is in the air. It's hard to codify and enforce standards of behaviour.

Think about it this way: what if I am trading with a guy, and offer him 2000 GP for his UR, and (pulling names from a hat, here) George comes by and says "Raven, you are taking advantage of a newbie. That UR is worth at least 6000. New guy, you should get a second opinion and talk to Smakdown."
Smak looks at the token, says "Yeah, it's worth 6K, but I don't buy with gold... I'll give you this UR, and these 25 Rares for it."
And Mike Steele overhears, and tells Laz that Smak is making it imposible for him to make any profit because he's offering his reds for so low, he's practically giving 'em away...
And now Laz is pissed at Mike for bad-mouthing Smak, and Mike is pissed at Smak and Laz, and George is annoyed at me, and I am glaring daggers into George's back because the Newbie was someone who I'd outfitted with tokens for his run, and he'd promised me a good price if he was lucky enough to draw an UR as treasure... and now we're all saying nasty things behind eachother's backs, and writing vitriol-filled posts on the forums...
and the Newbie decides that he'll just never trade with anyone again.

I guess what I am saying is, this discussion is excellent, and well worth having on these forums. I would be very cautious, though, about making any "rules", or putting people in a position where they can say "someone is breaking rules, how can we punish them?"

To respond to George's orignal question, though....

George wrote: 1) What are a good set of guidelines for acceptable and unacceptable behavior when someone else has already started talking to a player?

The same guidelines which currently exist, informally, anywhere people are doing trades.

I'd hate to have one set of guidelines for Guild members, and another one for other traders. However, if Guild traders feel more honour bound to behave in an appropriate and upstanding manner, then that is a personal decision, and one which I would endorse (tho not enforce)

2) If a guild member voilates these guidelines what should be done about it?

Same thing you do about anyone else who violates them. Politely inform them that Poaching is frowned upon, and you would like them to stay away from your trades in the future. If the guy persists in poaching... talk to a few other traders and see if they are having the same problem with the same guy.

If so, make a posse armed with clubs and captains mugs, meet the guy in the alley between the Marriott and Westin and have a little "talk" with him about his behaviour.

(I don't have to tell anyone I was kidding in the previous paragraph, do I? Probably not.)

3) What is your responsiblity as a guild member is you see a really bad trade being done to a new player?

I don't think there is any responsibility. In the interests of promoting a friendly trading atmosphere, however, I would hope that Guild members would step forward and let the new player know that it's a good idea to shop around before trading.

If it's an UR in question, I'd let the newbie know what the rough $ value is, so he could make an informed decision. If it's just Uncommons and Commons in question, I wouldn't interrupt the deal at all, but maybe talk to the newbie after and say "I think you were taken advantage of, but I don't want TD to leave a bad taste in your mouth.. so here, please have a few of these tokens free, from me, to help you survive your next dungeon run." I wouldn't expect that other traders felt any obligation to give away their own tokens for free, tho.

My two cents:

"Poaching" is frowned upon. It should be an unwritten rule like running into a teams goalie in hockey. I don't think it needs to be set in stone because it should be fairly obvious that this kind of behavior is not tolerated.

"Responsibility" belongs to both traders, experienced or unexperienced. While I was trading I always made the offer of "if you feel uncomfortable about doing a trade never feel bad about getting up and walking away." I had one person who bought an item from me and came back 20 minutes later because they found that they already had one in their bag but couldn't find it. I refunded them right away. Players will get burned from unscrupulous traders. It is unavoidable. They will also learn that there are reliable and trustworthy traders out there and they are the ones they will continue to go to in the future. Rapport with your clientele is worth more than making a quick profit.

I like Raven's idea about the posse, but could I suggest Pressman's Clubs? I seem to be overstocked on those. Lol

Smak, I will buy you a beer anytime. If you see me just shout "Beer!" and I will get you one in the bar. (In Japan we can drink them in public. I know! Awesome!"

Rafiq

One of the purposes of the guild should be to create an atmosphere where new players can be comfortable they are not being taken advantage of to enhance their play experience and increase the size of the TD following.
Part of that should be guild mates treating each other with courtesy and respect.
I enjoy a supreme court justice Potter Stewart's quote, "I know it when I see it" - and I think the same threshold should apply for new players being taken advantage of. I am not concerned with or looking out for experienced players, and other traders, so "going out of business" sales are not a concern, nor "buy me a beer" trades. But the I'll give you this + 1 Ring of Protection for that Pouch of Tulz is clearly one player taking advantage of another.
I am not looking for the guild to have a 15 page document of by-laws and if then situations. Common sense and common courtesy apply. A general sense of stay out of my business affairs apply. But educated and experienced players taking advantage of ignorant or inexperienced players should be stopped. Often, simple education for the ignorant player will be sufficient to resolve the problem.
I am not looking for guild bashers to police the traders. But I do believe we can all agree to treat each other respectfully, (i.e. don't poach), act responsibly by providing information and education to the inexperienced or ignorant, and keep our eyes of the vision of expanding True Dungeon, a game which we all seem to enjoy thoroughly.

smakdown wrote: 1. where will be setting up? if we are in the convention center, gencon frowns on trading. not to mention that the other venders (gamingetc, toad & troll) will be well within their rights to shut us down. unless we are off CC property. jmartin might be able to finagle a "traders area" in a cityscape/tavern.

I'm a Magic trader that is just now getting into TD, so I don't know how relevant my experience is. I know the vendors frown on cash transactions outside of the paying vendors (they want to buy stuff at their buylist, and that's why they pay what they do to set up a booth), but I've never heard of vendors that frown on trades. Trades get cards filtering through the system, and some product always eventually ends up in their hands due to that activity.

There wasn't much policing done by Gen Con workers this year, at least when it came to Magic. Cards were bought and sold with impunity on the trade floor. People were timid at first, but by Friday people were laying cash on the table during trades and no one blinked an eye. I don't know if it's the same with TD, but I figure it would be easier given that the TD event isn't even in the same building as the 3rd party vendors.

I am interested in being part of this guild. Would the rules created also apply to the trades on this forum?