TOPIC: Focus weapon clairification

Brad Mortensen wrote: But, yes, you may spend a free action to stow the Fang to switch to magic mode and cast spells, then spend another to switch back to melee mode and return to stabby mode.

If I understand this properly.

I agree with what you're saying here, and I heartily endorse the idea that there is a magic "mode."

For example, earlier in this thread, I said:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Black letter rules from the manuals indicate you can switch out of set pieces by moving between "modes".

The only modes mentioned in the manuals are melee and ranged. Spell has been mentioned on this thread by Druegar per Jeff. I am presupposing Bardsong and possibly Scroll modes as well.

You are only locked into hand set pieces in modes where they were equipped in the coaching room.

You get set bonuses in all modes.

However, I was corrected in this point, and what I wrote above is definitely not how things work:

Druegar wrote: The rules governing switching between physically attacking and magic use have been clarified to the following:...
Magic use—casting a spell from your character card, performing bardsong, reading a scroll, or using an item which generates a spell—is not a separate "mode" of combat. Using magic has no bearing on set bonuses.

and:

Druegar wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: 3. Ring of Spell Storing allows you to cast one spell from your character card as a free action.

Can you physically attack with a non-focus weapon and cast a spell as a free action with this - or do your hands need to be in magic use compatible mode first?

1. There is no "magic use mode". I think that terminology may confuse people, so let's eschew its use.

So - I guess I've been assuming you must be in either ranged or melee mode when casting spells. This assumption implies that you must be able to really, truly, unequip a set item in a mode in order to cast spells.

I guess it's possible that you are not in any kind of a mode at all while casting a spell?

Having concrete answers to these questions would help:

1. During combat, are you always in either ranged or melee mode?
2. Are you in a mode while using magic?
3. If you are in a mode while using magic, how is it determined what mode you are in?

MasterED wrote: In short, you as a Wizard can't unequp a VSF because you could never equip it to begin with to get the bonus.

Ed

This is not in dispute.

We're talking about whether you need the VSF "equipped" in order to get its set bonus when casting spells - given that you can't be holding it in your hand when casting spells.

Brad's solution is to say it is equipped, even though it's not in your hand, by virtue of being equipped in melee mode.

I agree this is an elegant solution, but we know there is no magic use mode - so I don't think this can be the whole story.

DM Guide, p 14, says: A character equipping a hand-held item in a melee slot to fulfill a set bonus must keep that specific hand-held item equipped when engaged in melee combat.

(Emphasis mine) And casting a spell isn't melee combat.

Same wording applies to ranged weapons. And, ditto.

So whether a "magic mode" exists by name or not, it's the same result. Use a free action to stow your Fang, which does not negate the set bonus, cast your spell(s), then use another free action to go back to stabbing.

Brad Mortensen wrote: DM Guide, p 14, says: A character equipping a hand-held item in a melee slot to fulfill a set bonus must keep that specific hand-held item equipped when engaged in melee combat.

(Emphasis mine) And casting a spell isn't melee combat.

Same wording applies to ranged weapons. And, ditto.

So whether a "magic mode" exists by name or not, it's the same result. Use a free action to stow your Fang, which does not negate the set bonus, cast your spell(s), then use another free action to go back to stabbing.

This helps me understand things a lot, as it explains how a player can get their hands empty while being in melee or ranged mode!

I don't think it resolves the tDB wording issue regarding the necessity of "equipping" the Viper Strike Fang to get the set bonus.

I'll try to make a formal argument here to speed things along:

Premises:

a. A character may cast a spell in melee mode.

b. Casting a spell in melee more is not "engaging in melee combat."

c. A character may not cast a spell while holding a +2 Viper Strike Fang in their main or offhand.

d. A character gets the Viper Strike Set +2 To Hit bonus while casting spells if in the coaching room they equipped the Viper Strike Belt, Viper Strike Shirt, and a +2 Viper Strike Fang in the melee mainhand or offhand.

e. For a +2 Viper Strike Fang to be "equipped" one of these conditions must pertain:
i. The character is in melee mode, and is holding a +2 Viper Strike Fang in their main or offhand
ii. The character is not in melee mode, and the +2 Viper Strike Fang was presented in the coaching room as their Melee mainhand or offhand weapon.

From a, b, c, d and e we have:

Conclusion: A character may cast a spell in melee mode, receiving the +2 to hit bonus from the Viper Strike Set, while the +2 Viper Stike Fang is not "equipped."

If there are errors in the premises, I would like to know what they are.

If there are errors in the soundness of the argument, I'd like to know what they are.

The quote above from the rules governs what may be in your hands while when "engaging in melee combat." However by premise b above a melee attack is not being made when a spell is being cast, so if you agree with premise b the rules quote above has no further bearing on the argument I'm presenting.

clarifies that while performing a melee attack premise c.i must be true - however when casting a spell one is not performing a melee attack, so this rule has no bearing on the argument above (as one is not performing a melee attack).

If the argument is sound and the premises are correct, then the conclusion follows, in which case this statement in tDB:

"When at least three items are equipped ... that character gets +2 To Hit on all attack slides-including spells cast from the character card..."

Should be amended to reflect that one need not (indeed can not) equip a +2 Viper Strike Fang while casting a spell in order to get the set bonus, so long as they would qualify for the set bonus while making a melee attack.

You're over-complicating things, in my opinion, trying to solve a problem that doesn't even exist yet, and won't until the next character rewrite.

And you're still misusing the word "equip." Tokens are equipped into slots, whether you're holding them or not. You cannot HOLD a Fang while casting, but it can certainly be EQUIPPED. Not that it matters this year.

Besides, it seems to me it's all already covered in the existing rules.

Druegar wrote: You cannot qualify for a set bonus unless you have actually equipped the required items.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Are you sure about that?

I am absolutely, positively, 100% certain that you cannot benefit from a set bonus unless you have equipped the necessary items. If you are incapable of equipping the required items, you do not get the set bonus--period, end of story. When it comes to a hand-held item that's swappable in the adventure, "equipped" does not necessarily mean currently in your hand.

As to the question of there being a "magic mode"... If Jeff wants to implement that in the future, that's his prerogative. But at the current time, there is no officially recognized "magic mode" in combat. It's possible there may be one on the future, but it's not a discussion I've been privy to.

My Personal Opinions:
If imagining there is a "magic mode" in combat helps one internally grok the rules, imagine away. However, since it's not an officially recognized concept, using it to buttress a rules argument is bound to lead to confusion.

Druegar wrote:

Druegar wrote: You cannot qualify for a set bonus unless you have actually equipped the required items.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Are you sure about that?

I am absolutely, positively, 100% certain that you cannot benefit from a set bonus unless you have equipped the necessary items. If you are incapable of equipping the required items, you do not get the set bonus--period, end of story. When it comes to a hand-held item that's swappable in the adventure, "equipped" does not necessarily mean currently in your hand.

[/quote]

I never thought you could get a set bonus from something you were unable to equip.

What is news to me is that a handheld item can be "equipped" even when it is not being held.

Thank you for clarifying.

Matthew Hayward wrote: What is news to me is that a handheld item can be "equipped" even when it is not being held.

To be clear, there are very limited and specific circumstances in which that scenario is valid. Quoting from the QTR:
When a set bonus is achieved by equipping a weapon, shield, orb, or anything held in (not worn on) the hand, the hand-held item is "locked in" for that mode of combat. Therefore:

• If you equip a hand-held item in a melee slot to fulfill a set bonus, you must keep that specific hand-held item equipped when engaging in melee combat.
• If you equip a hand-held item in a ranged slot to fulfill a set bonus, you must keep that specific hand-held item equipped when engaging in physical ranged combat.

You may temporarily swap one or both hand-held set-piece items (either melee for ranged or ranged for melee) and maintain the set's bonus. However, the bonuses granted by the individual "lost" item(s) won't apply. E.g., a ranger using Scepter, Orb, and Boots of Might to gain a level may swap out the Scepter and Orb to use a ranged weapon, but may not use any other melee weapons. During the swap-out, the ranger loses the +2 Strength bonus granted by the Orb of Might, but maintains the +1 level granted by the Might set.

While I don't think there needs to be a change to the TokenDB entries, there could be something inserted in as a second sentence in the last paragraph of the set bonus rules:

You may also stow handheld set-piece items to cast spells or scrolls without losing the set's bonus. (This is not necessary if the item(s) grant casting focus.)

Or something like that. I don't think it's necessary, but it might reduce confusion. The whole "empty your hands to cast a spell" is a new concept for the majority of us.

Druegar wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: What is news to me is that a handheld item can be "equipped" even when it is not being held.

To be clear, there are very limited and specific circumstances in which that scenario is valid. Quoting from the QTR:
When a set bonus is achieved by equipping a weapon, shield, orb, or anything held in (not worn on) the hand, the hand-held item is "locked in" for that mode of combat. Therefore:

• If you equip a hand-held item in a melee slot to fulfill a set bonus, you must keep that specific hand-held item equipped when engaging in melee combat.
• If you equip a hand-held item in a ranged slot to fulfill a set bonus, you must keep that specific hand-held item equipped when engaging in physical ranged combat.

You may temporarily swap one or both hand-held set-piece items (either melee for ranged or ranged for melee) and maintain the set's bonus. However, the bonuses granted by the individual "lost" item(s) won't apply. E.g., a ranger using Scepter, Orb, and Boots of Might to gain a level may swap out the Scepter and Orb to use a ranged weapon, but may not use any other melee weapons. During the swap-out, the ranger loses the +2 Strength bonus granted by the Orb of Might, but maintains the +1 level granted by the Might set.

I think it is that locked in part that is confusing. So if I have the Orb of Might in melee (because it cannot be in my hand in ranged) then can I not cast because it is locked in? Since there is no spell combat, I would be in melee combat while casting a spell. I could change to ranged and if my range weapon is not part of a set bonus drop it, but if it is then it too is locked in.

The bullets make it clear that the weapon is only locked in for that combat mode.

That's why it's easier for me to grok if you say there's now a "casting mode" (or "configuration," or whatever) of combat. And in practice there is because your hands (usually) have to be empty, even if we don't want to call it that because reasons.

Brad Mortensen wrote: The bullets make it clear that the weapon is only locked in for that combat mode.

That's why it's easier for me to grok if you say there's now a "casting mode" (or "configuration," or whatever) of combat. And in practice there is because your hands (usually) have to be empty, even if we don't want to call it that because reasons.

Correct but currently there are only 2 combat modes. Melee and Ranged. If something is locked in both those modes it makes it sound like you cannot drop them to cast a spell. That may not be the case but that is what locked in sounds like and why I said confusing.


"Magic use—casting a spell from your character card, performing bardsong, reading a scroll, or using an item which generates a spell—is not a separate "mode" of combat." Post number 25 in this thread



I should also add to my knowledge there is not at this time a range mainhand or offhand weapon token that is part of a set bonus.