TOPIC: Focus weapon clairification

I was finally able to tackle Jeff to the ground and force some answers out of him.
Thank you for your patience.

The rules governing switching between physically attacking and magic use have been clarified to the following:
Much like swapping weapons, switching between physically attacking and magic use (or vice versa) means you either need to stow a physical weapon or retrieve one. That swap requires a small amount of time. Therefore, switching between physically attacking and using magic requires a Free Action.
Magic use—casting a spell from your character card, performing bardsong, reading a scroll, or using an item which generates a spell—is not a separate "mode" of combat. Using magic has no bearing on set bonuses.

The rules governing magic use and holding things in one's hands have been clarified to the following:
Unless otherwise specified, two hands are required to cast a spell use magic. Currently, all shields are sufficiently non-encumbering to the user's offhand that they do not preclude spellcasting or performing bardsong magic use. Therefore, as long as the caster's mainhand is completely free (it's not holding anything, the user is not entangled, not under the influence of a Hold spell, et cetera), the caster may gain all the benefits of a shield and use magic (spells, scrolls, magic items, bardsong, and so on.)
The specialized magic contained within Focus weapons (both the one- and two-handed varieties, but only Focus weapons) aids in spellcasting magic use, thus allowing their wielders to hold a Focus weapon while casting a spell using magic. However, Focus weapons do not grant the ability to simultaneously make a physical attack and cast a spell use magic.

Post #25 in this thread has been updated to reflect those changes.

To keep beating the expired equine:

"Using magic" and "casting a spell" sound like two different things.

So it sounds like a focus weapon effectively lets you alternate between casting a spell and combat without spending a free action. But toggling between using a scroll and combat still takes a free action?

No judgement, just want to be sure I understand. Sounds fine to me either way.

Brad Mortensen wrote: "Using magic" and "casting a spell" sound like two different things.

They are two different things in the same way "animal" and "cow" are different things. One is a sub-set of the other.

In TD, "casting a spell" nearly always refers to casting a spell from your character card and excludes scrolls and magic items. Saying "using magic" rather than "casting a spell from your character card, performing bardsong, reading a scroll, or using an item which generates a spell" is an attempt to be more encompassing. It gets tedious reading (and writing) "casting a spell from your character card, performing bardsong, reading a scroll, or using an item which generates a spell" every single time you mean to refer to casting a spell from your character card, performing bardsong, reading a scroll, or using an item which generates a spell. When you're reading, would you rather read an umbrella term like "magic use" or "casting a spell from your character card, performing bardsong, reading a scroll, or using an item which generates a spell"? I know I'd much rather read "magic use" than "casting a spell from your character card, performing bardsong, reading a scroll, or using an item which generates a spell."

No, saying "magic use" is perfect. I hope you didn't think I'd rather the rule was twice as long

I think that sometimes words get muddled in our heads, so I wanted to be sure I was understanding correctly that focus weapons don't help you read scrolls.

Druegar wrote: I

The rules governing changing attack modes have been clarified to the following:
Much like swapping weapons, switching between physically attacking and magic use (or vice versa) means you either need to stow a physical weapon or retrieve one. That swap requires a small amount of time. Therefore, switching between physically attacking to using magic requires a Free Action.
Magic use—casting a spell from your character card, performing bardsong, reading a scroll, or using an item which generates a spell—is not a separate "mode" of combat. Magic use has no bearing on set bonuses.

I don't entirely understand this. I'm not trying to be difficult.

Does "magic use has no bearing on set bonuses" mean one may freely unequip set items while retaining their bonuses while using magic?

A Bard has equipped the Footman Set in the coaching room in both ranged and melee. They wish to perform Bardsong using an instrument that requires 2 hands.
* How is it that the Bard is able to unequip the Footman shield in order to equip the 2 handed instrument?
* What combat mode is the Bard in while performing Bardsong? (If the answer is "none" - how does the DM determine the Bard's AC while they are doing bardsong?)

Can I choose to enter combat in ranged or melee mode but with my hands empty and ready to cast spells without using a free action on the first round?

Matthew Hayward wrote: Does "magic use has no bearing on set bonuses" mean one may freely unequip set items while retaining their bonuses while using magic?

yes

Matthew Hayward wrote: Can I choose to enter combat in ranged or melee mode but with my hands empty and ready to cast spells without using a free action on the first round?

yes

Druegar wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Does "magic use has no bearing on set bonuses" mean one may freely unequip set items while retaining their bonuses while using magic?

yes

Matthew Hayward wrote: Can I choose to enter combat in ranged or melee mode but with my hands empty and ready to cast spells without using a free action on the first round?

yes

Got it - thank you for leading me out of the dark forest of confusion to the plushy sward of enlightenment.

I now wonder about the status of a few tokens that let you use magic as a free action. Do they let you:

* Use magic as a free action, full stop.
* Or - let you use magic as a free action if your hands are free holding a focus weapon

Examples:

1. Shield of the Scholar allows you to cast a scroll as a free action.

Can you physically attack with a non-focus weapon and cast a scroll as a free action with this - or do your hands need to be in magic use compatible mode first?

2. The tDB entry for Widseth's Mystical Lute and Shield of the Scholar both indicate you can bardsong, attack, and read a scroll as a free action on a single turn when both Widseth's Mystical Lute and Shield of the Scholar are equipped.

Is this simply the case full stop, or does it require that Widseth's was equipped at the start of the round (else switching to Widseth's would take the free action)?

3. Ring of Spell Storing allows you to cast one spell from your character card as a free action.

Can you physically attack with a non-focus weapon and cast a spell as a free action with this - or do your hands need to be in magic use compatible mode first?

4. Lenses of Sage Speed allow you to cast two scrolls in one round, the first as a standard action and the second as a free action.

Can you physically attack and use pouch of Tulz on round 1, and then use Lenses of Sage Speed on Round 2 - or do you need to enter the round with your hands in magic use compatible mode to use these.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Got it - thank you for leading me out of the dark forest of confusion to the plushy sward of enlightenment.

I learned a new word, thank you!

Matthew Hayward wrote: I now wonder about the status of a few tokens that let you use magic as a free action. Do they let you:

• Use magic as a free action, full stop.
• Or - let you use magic as a free action if your hands are free holding a focus weapon

The latter.

Matthew Hayward wrote: 1. Shield of the Scholar allows you to cast a scroll as a free action.

Can you physically attack with a non-focus weapon and cast a scroll as a free action with this - or do your hands need to be in magic use compatible mode first?

The SotS lets you both retrieve the scroll from storage and cast it as a single Free Action. However, to use a scroll, you need free hands. Therefore, you would need to stow whatever was in your main hand if it's not a Focus weapon and that requires a Free Action (FA). Thus, your second scenario is correct.

Matthew Hayward wrote: 2. The [TDb] entry for Widseth's Mystical Lute and Shield of the Scholar both indicate you can bardsong, attack, and read a scroll as a free action on a single turn when both Widseth's Mystical Lute and Shield of the Scholar are equipped.

Is this simply the case full stop, or does it require that Widseth's was equipped at the start of the round (else switching to Widseth's would take the free action)?

If Widseth's was swapped in for something else in that round, that would eliminate the possibility of using any other FAs for that round. However, if the swap was done on the previous round, that would leave the current round's FA open for use.

Matthew Hayward wrote: 3. Ring of Spell Storing allows you to cast one spell from your character card as a free action.

Can you physically attack with a non-focus weapon and cast a spell as a free action with this - or do your hands need to be in magic use compatible mode first?

1. There is no "magic use mode". I think that terminology may confuse people, so let's eschew its use.
2. Since the ring would already equipped, there is no need to retrieve it, so that part would not require a FA. Because using a magic item requires free hands (not counting shields), the non-Focus weapon would have to be stowed to free up the hands. Swapping a weapon in or out requires a FA, so that would use up the FA for that round. Therefore, you could not attack with a non-Focus weapon and use Ring of Spell Storing in the same round.

Matthew Hayward wrote: 4. Lenses of Sage Speed allow you to cast two scrolls in one round, the first as a standard action and the second as a free action.

Can you physically attack and use pouch of Tulz on round 1, and then use Lenses of Sage Speed on Round 2 - or do you need to enter the round with your hands in magic use compatible mode to use these.

Your second example is correct. Pouch of Tulz would use up round 1's FA, so the non-Focus weapon could not be swapped out until round 2. Therefore, there would not be a FA available on round 2 to use the second spell effect from LoSS.

BTW, these responses were all confirmed by Jeff.

The specialized magic contained within Focus weapons (both the one- and two-handed varieties, but only Focus weapons) aids in spellcasting, thus allowing their wielders to hold a Focus weapon while casting a spell. However, Focus weapons do not grant the ability to simultaneously make a physical attack and cast a spell.

So based on what you just said, "cast a spell" should be replaced with "use magic?"

That's what I was trying to ask in post #62

Druegar wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: 1. Shield of the Scholar allows you to cast a scroll as a free action.

Can you physically attack with a non-focus weapon and cast a scroll as a free action with this - or do your hands need to be in magic use compatible mode first?

The SotS lets you both retrieve the scroll from storage and cast it as a single Free Action. However, to use a scroll, you need free hands. Therefore, you would need to stow whatever was in your main hand if it's not a Focus weapon and that requires a Free Action (FA). Thus, your second scenario is correct.

So for a Bard this really limits the effectiveness of the Shield of the Scholar. Basically it used to be a shield that allowed you to attack and use a scroll on the same turn. So the only use now would be:

1. Attack and then stow weapon as a free action
2. Use scroll as a free action and then either use another scroll or cast a spell for the character card
3. Use free action to retrieve weapon and then attack

I guess it is OK if you had two scrolls you wanted to use in the same turn but then theoretically you would have needed the foresight to use your free action on the last turn to stow your weapon.

Brad Mortensen wrote: "cast a spell" should be replaced with "use magic?"

Indeed it should and has been.

Brad Mortensen wrote: That's what I was trying to ask in post #62

Well why didn't you say so in the first place?
Ya gotta talk to me like I'm a dummy. 'Cause, well...

Druegar wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: 2. The [TDb] entry for Widseth's Mystical Lute and Shield of the Scholar both indicate you can bardsong, attack, and read a scroll as a free action on a single turn when both Widseth's Mystical Lute and Shield of the Scholar are equipped.

Is this simply the case full stop, or does it require that Widseth's was equipped at the start of the round (else switching to Widseth's would take the free action)?

If Widseth's was swapped in for something else in that round, that would eliminate the possibility of using any other FAs for that round. However, if the swap was done on the previous round, that would leave the current round's FA open for use.

Actually - I'm still confused a bit on this.

I understand that if you swap in Widseth's this round you've used your FA and so no more FA's that round - so let's put that behind us.

What remains for me:

1. Let's assume I've had Widseth's equipped since the beginning of this round, and I'm wielding a Darkwood Club and Shield of the Scholar.

Can I attack with my Darkwood Club and read a scroll as a FA with Shield of the Scholar? (Question arises because my hands are holding a two-handed lute, and my bonus hands are not holding a focus weapon).

Since the ruling on WML and SOS that you can Bardsong, physically attack, and read a scroll predates Focus weapons - I'm guessing either this ruling needs to be revisited, or WML does something special here and lets you use magic with junk in your hands contrary to normal rules.