TOPIC: Focus weapon clairification

balthasar wrote: Can a Ranger using two Viper Strike Daggers to complete a set bonus even cast a spell? They can't break the set bonus, but need two hands to cast, correct?

Yes, since spell is an attack mode they would change to it (1 free action) similar to changing to ranged attack mode where they don't have the daggers equipped but still get the bonus.

Having a spell attack mode makes sense to me, even if the ramifications make things more complex.

@Mathew would it make sense to say spell attack mode would cover spells, scrolls and bardsong?

jedibcg wrote: @Mathew would it make sense to say spell attack mode would cover spells, scrolls and bardsong?

There are exceptions to bardsong "mode," of course.

Using Briano's allows spellcasting even though your hands are full (I guess it works as an instrument of Focus), and Widseth's allows you to consider a shield and weapon as equipped, even though they aren't.

I want to thank everyone who posed before. My response here leverages some of your great work. I am also going to agree this rule modification seems unnecessary. We are already restricted from physically attacking and casting a spell in the same round due to each being a standard action (SA).

Having said that if the powers that be need this rule change for some specific reason then we need to make sure it is effective. So with the new ruling spell casting now needs two free hands (excluding shields) and spell casting implements (Staff of Focus, Staff of Power, Baton of Focus, etc.) bypass this rule.

Hence the rule change significantly impacts spell casters that want to alternate spells and combat sliding. I would agree with Brad's suggestion with one small change. Make stowing/dropping a weapon or weapons an immediate action (IA). This would not consume your free action (FA). This would still put an inherent time component in returning to the original attack mode (see below).

We then get these scenarios:

Ranger (2 melee weapons, 1 two handed ranged weapon)

• Round 1 – Melee Attack (SA), can still do something with a (FA)
• Round 2 – Stows melee weapons (IA), Draws ranged weapon (FA), range attack (SA)
• Round 3 – Stows ranged weapon (IA), Casts spell (SA), can still use a (FA)
• Round 4 – Draws melee weapons (FA), melee attack (SA)
• Rinse/Repeat

Druid/Cleric (Scepter/Orb in melee, sling for ranged)

• Round 1 - Stow melee items (IA), Cast a spell (SA), can still use (FA)
• Round 2 - Draw melee items (FA), melee attack (SA)
• Rinse/Repeat

Combat Wizard Cabal Set or Zephyr (Melee/Ranged weapon)

• Round 1 - Melee Attack (SA), Cabal Set / Zephyr action does not apply because no spell cast
• Round 2 - Stow melee weapon (IA), Cast spell (SA), Cast Cabal Set or Zephyr Spell (FA)
• Round 3 - Draw melee weapon (FA), Melee attack (SA)
• Note at no time could both the Cabal Set and Zephyr both trigger an extra spell because they each require a free action (FA) to invoke.

I would suggest Ring of Spell Storing bypass the two hand spell casting requirements under the concept the spell was previously stored in the ring and you are just triggering the release with a free action (FA). This also improves the value of item in the spell casting world.

For the Carter's Tome of Insight one must have been in spell casting "mode" the round before so re-casting a spell in the current round only requires a (FA).

Sorry for the long winded post and if I missed any scenarios just trying to come up with a working solution.

Ed

jedibcg wrote:

balthasar wrote: Can a Ranger using two Viper Strike Daggers to complete a set bonus even cast a spell? They can't break the set bonus, but need two hands to cast, correct?

Yes, since spell is an attack mode they would change to it (1 free action) similar to changing to ranged attack mode where they don't have the daggers equipped but still get the bonus.

Having a spell attack mode makes sense to me, even if the ramifications make things more complex.

@Mathew would it make sense to say spell attack mode would cover spells, scrolls and bardsong?

But you can't break the set, correct? Does this mean they always have those weapons equipped? I can understand if there is a separate 'spell attack mode', but does that even exist yet?

balthasar wrote: But you can't break the set, correct? Does this mean they always have those weapons equipped? I can understand if there is a separate 'spell attack mode', but does that even exist yet?

On page 3 from Druegar
per Jeff:
The rules governing changing attack modes have been clarified to the following:
Switching from one attack mode (melee, missile, or spell) to another or switching from one weapon to another means you either need to stow a physical weapon or retrieve one. That swap requires a small amount of time. Therefore, changing attack modes requires a Free Action.

This seems to suggest that yes there is a spell attack mode. You can switch to an attack mode that doesn't have a set token in it. If not then you would never be able to go ranged in the example you provided. Think of it as switching modes same as you already do for going between ranged and melee. In that spell casting mode you don't have anything equipped in your hands so you are able to cast.

balthasar wrote: Can a Ranger using two Viper Strike Daggers to complete a set bonus even cast a spell? They can't break the set bonus, but need two hands to cast, correct?

If I understand right, yes, because they can switch to "spell mode" with a free action, and they are not required to equip the fangs in spell mode (just as they aren't in ranged mode).

jedibcg wrote:

balthasar wrote: Can a Ranger using two Viper Strike Daggers to complete a set bonus even cast a spell? They can't break the set bonus, but need two hands to cast, correct?

Yes, since spell is an attack mode they would change to it (1 free action) similar to changing to ranged attack mode where they don't have the daggers equipped but still get the bonus.

Having a spell attack mode makes sense to me, even if the ramifications make things more complex.

@Mathew would it make sense to say spell attack mode would cover spells, scrolls and bardsong?

I think we might as well break it out - as the main problem comes from what happens to what is in your hands and set bonuses, so if we lumped them together today we'd regret it as soon as there was:

* A 1 handed bard instrument
* A set involving focus weapons or bard instruments

etc.

balthasar wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

balthasar wrote: Can a Ranger using two Viper Strike Daggers to complete a set bonus even cast a spell? They can't break the set bonus, but need two hands to cast, correct?

Yes, since spell is an attack mode they would change to it (1 free action) similar to changing to ranged attack mode where they don't have the daggers equipped but still get the bonus.

Having a spell attack mode makes sense to me, even if the ramifications make things more complex.

@Mathew would it make sense to say spell attack mode would cover spells, scrolls and bardsong?

But you can't break the set, correct? Does this mean they always have those weapons equipped? I can understand if there is a separate 'spell attack mode', but does that even exist yet?

Black letter rules from the manuals indicate you can switch out of set pieces by moving between "modes".

The only modes mentioned in the manuals are melee and ranged. Spell has been mentioned on this thread by Druegar per Jeff. I am presupposing Bardsong and possibly Scroll modes as well.

You are only locked into hand set pieces in modes where they were equipped in the coaching room.

You get set bonuses in all modes.

If there are non-set bonus benefits granted by a set token, you get them only in the mode they are equipped.

Example: you wear the defender set and equip the Defender Shield in ranged mode with a sling, you get +1 to AC and free action as a set bonus. In melee you equip a 2 handed weapon.

* You still get +1 to AC and free action in melee.
* You can equip anything you want in your melee hands in the dungeon.
* For ranged, you may never unequip your Defender Shield.
* Your AC in melee does not include the Defender Shield.

Matthew Hayward wrote:
I think we might as well break it out - as the main problem comes from what happens to what is in your hands and set bonuses, so if we lumped them together today we'd regret it as soon as there was:

* A 1 handed bard instrument
* A set involving focus weapons or bard instruments

etc.

Scroll casting though sounds like spell casting to me, you are just using a scroll. Unless we get a ruling that scrolls require hand(s) which they probably do but we don't have that yet.


Bardsong is an oddity. It really isn't an attack mode (though with Widesth the instrument is attacking not the bard).

jedibcg wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:
I think we might as well break it out - as the main problem comes from what happens to what is in your hands and set bonuses, so if we lumped them together today we'd regret it as soon as there was:

* A 1 handed bard instrument
* A set involving focus weapons or bard instruments

etc.

Scroll casting though sounds like spell casting to me, you are just using a scroll. Unless we get a ruling that scrolls require hand(s) which they probably do but we don't have that yet.

I hope so - but we're waiting for feedback from TPTB on whether scrolls can be read while holding a shield. If they can't, then it implies either a new mode, or that players who equip shields for set bonuses in all modes can't read scrolls.

jedibcg wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:
Bardsong is an oddity. It really isn't an attack mode (though with Widesth the instrument is attacking not the bard).

I think it is, based on the following:

1. A bard can equip the Footman set in ranged/melee/spell modes.
2. Today, all Bard instruments all require 2 hands.

So - we have a few options:

1. A bard who has equipped the Footman set in melee/ranged/spell can't perform Bardsong.
2. Bard instruments allow users to break set equipment rules in melee/ranged/spell.
3. There is a bardsong mode, which allows the bard to switch to it, and doesn't lock them into their hands from any other mode.

I think #1 is right out. I could live with either #2 or #3.

Bardsong actually has an entire other problem, in that as written in the rules it is a "full round action" - which precludes the use of a free action on a turn where Bardsong is made. There was some discussion of this a while back, and I think the consensus was "we're going to pretend that rule doesn't exist and Bardsong is a standard action."

May I make a suggestion? Until we get further clarification from Jeff, how about we all take a deep, calming breath? The sky-is-falling freak-outs and wild speculations aren't helping anyone.

I didn't get the feeling anyone was freaking out even in the slightest maybe a different reading. All I can say I wasn't. It just been a discussion of what knowledge we do have and where there might be holes.

But I can certain stop speculation.