Harlax wrote:
Amorgen Burke wrote: If only we could have our signed waiver on file and once we've electronically signed it, never have to do it again unless the waiver changes.
This would save a TON of paper and pens and time. Then you could show on your phone that you have signed the waiver.
8000 waivers per Con, per year going forward. Presumably retained until the statute of limitations runs for that year. That's a hell of a lot of paper to store and manage.
And in Wisconsin, the waiver may not be all that effective anyway.
www.axley.com/publication_article/waivers-of-liability-are-they-worth-the-paper-they-are-written-on/
www.hallrender.com/2013/05/16/wave-goodbye-to-liability-waiver-enforceability-in-wisconsin/
www.sportwaiver.com/wisconsin-supreme-court-reinforces-its-stand-against-the-enforcement-of-waivers/
I think you are missing the point on why they were determined invalid and uninforceable.
The courts have said that people cannot be forced to sign away their inalienable rights in cases of gross negligence. In the links you provided, the fitness center was found negligent... not installing the equipment properly... therefore the injury was found preventable therefore the user could sue due to the fitness center’s negligence.
I don’t know of any legal jurisdiction where a person can sign away their rights when the other party has been found grossly negligent (also sometimes known as against public policy, what expectation a reasonable and prudent person would have).
Even in Wisconsin they have been found enforceable when the person signing the waiver didn’t disclose all their information, were stupid or careless, or had a medical condition that caused themselves to be at higher risk for said activity, or even another third party at the establishment caused harm that the establishment could in no way have foreseen and prevented, and the liability waivers did protect the establishment.
One of my many hobbies is teaching scuba diving— one of the few activities my disability doesn’t hamper. I am required by my profesional liability insurance company and even the dive agencies I teach for to have my students sign a liability release waiver (including a medical questioner that may cause me to require them to have a medical doctor sign as well)... and except in cases where the instructor or other listed agency has been negligent (gross negligence), they are enforceable and do protect the instuctor, pool owner, dive store, open water site, etc.
I attend yearly meetings where this is discussed and analyses in detail.
In the above, all three places talk about “gross negligence” not being protected by liability waivers.
Waivers do protect against silly lawsuits— someone trips over their own two feet and gets a boo-boo. If the agency did everything a reasonable and prudent person would do to make that place safe, they would be protected... but if, say, an electric cord was not taped down and said person tripped, no waiver would protect them, no matter how ridiculously worded the waiver was written to protect them against even this specific type of occurrence.
In my professional life I have been involved in liability waivers complications as well... and courts do uphold them... again provided no gross negligence can be proven. I have personally seen court cases thrown out in the first hearing where the courts upheld the liability release waivers... as well as allowing cases to proceed to see if the injured party could prove gross negligence. I have also seen it go both ways where the injured party paid all court expenses when they lost, as well as having each party pay their own expenses... even though the waiver stated the suing party has to pay both sides regardless if they won or loss...
To say they are worthless is a little careless in my opinion... if I don’t have a student sign a form I am in risk of loosing everything I own even if they are injured due to something that is completely their own fault... their next of kin could sue me and take me to the cleaners... but if I do have all my T’s dotted and I’s crossed (lol), my liability insurance will protect me from frivolous law suits in our sadly sue-happy world. And even if I were to loose, I would be covered by my insurance.
True Adventures (and even GenCon) need the waivers signed to protect themselves. The waivers also explain the risks involved in the activities. They need to show that they are using a system that does all they can reasonably do to get every participant to sign their own waiver (with adult co-signing if underage)... and if they can prove this, even if a single person finds a way to bypass signing and is then injured due to their own stupidity, they would be protected.
Just my 1 and a 1/2 cents worth...