TOPIC: Please post your questions here

Definitely agree you should be able to produce them at the beginning and end of a run and that they should be present with the party the whole time. If I'm on the run I should be able to loan them to the entire party. Now normally I do 2 runs with my friends and buy all 10 tickets, and a couple other runs where I buy 4-5 tickets and run with people we don't know.

1) When I'm with my friends, I keep all the TEs with me and lay them out for the coach to verify all in one place, then put them away for safety. As I do with most of the rest of the gear for everyone, everyone has a small wallet for what they might need to produce or use in the dungeon. The rest are put away and I carry them through the dungeon. Everything we listed on the party card including TEs and other gear is either with me or with the other players.

Now,

2) When I run with folks I don't know, if they don't have Charm of Good Fortune, I offer to loan it to them for the run, and that if they agree it's there lucky day because they will get 4 extra treasure at the end. I know other folks ask for all or a cut of the bonus chips, but the way I look at it I want to be a good ambassador of the game, so I just enjoy my extra 4 and let them enjoy it too. Most of the time they are very thankful and have fun pulling the extra chips. My in game procedure is just the same, I show them to the coach, then put them away for safety. They are with me from start to finish. To be honest, while most of the players are completely trustworthy, people do forget stuff and I don't think it is fair to me to risk my Charm disappearing because someone forget and disappeared before I got it back, that just adds unnecessary stress to me.

I feel like both of the above instances are perfectly reasonable, and am not even against the owner taking a cut of the user's bonus chips. I do agree passing around 10 x COA to multiple simultaneous runs does cross over the line. I hope what was written pertains to that type of scenario and not what I do.

Edit: By the Way, I haven't meet a coach yet who didn't appreciate that everything was set up together (in front of me) that he/she could so easily verify we had what we said we had. They usually comment, thanks for making it easy for me.

jedibcg wrote: But that isn't the portion that made Matthew point it out or me think about it. It is is a request to refrain from loaning out TE tokens. That is what seems unusual to me.

Why is that unusual?

I recall that even in the early days of the Horn of Plenty, Jeff had asked that people refrain from lending them out. (Though even then, some people were nonetheless loaning them out, sometimes to make a profit).

Incognito wrote:

jedibcg wrote: But that isn't the portion that made Matthew point it out or me think about it. It is is a request to refrain from loaning out TE tokens. That is what seems unusual to me.

Why is that unusual?

I recall that even in the early days of the Horn of Plenty, Jeff had asked that people refrain from lending them out. (Though even then, some people were nonetheless loaning them out, sometimes to make a profit).

I think it was the word "especially" that has everyone confused.

If he had just said "please don't lend them to people if you're not on the run," I doubt there would be this much discussion.

But maybe a check in the coach room and the xp desk isn't enough. Maybe one DM (room four?) checks the TEs as they exit the room. You could hang all those old useless "T" signs up as a reminder to get them out or risk having the party card edited.

Incognito wrote:

jedibcg wrote: But that isn't the portion that made Matthew point it out or me think about it. It is is a request to refrain from loaning out TE tokens. That is what seems unusual to me.

Why is that unusual?

I recall that even in the early days of the Horn of Plenty, Jeff had asked that people refrain from lending them out. (Though even then, some people were nonetheless loaning them out, sometimes to make a profit).

News to me, before my time, so therefore unusual for me.

Incognito wrote:

jedibcg wrote: But that isn't the portion that made Matthew point it out or me think about it. It is is a request to refrain from loaning out TE tokens. That is what seems unusual to me.

Why is that unusual?

I recall that even in the early days of the Horn of Plenty, Jeff had asked that people refrain from lending them out. (Though even then, some people were nonetheless loaning them out, sometimes to make a profit).

Unusual because during the entire crafting period of the CoA, and the entire purchase period of the AoTF and ISSN there has been no mention of a request to not loan these tokens to fellow adventurers within the same party as the owner.

People, such as me, made transmutation and purchasing decisions on the premise that they can equip their party with URTEs just like they can with any other token.

jedibcg wrote: News to me, before my time, so therefore unusual for me.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Unusual because during the entire crafting period of the CoA, and the entire purchase period of the AoTF and ISSN there has been no mention of a request to not loan these tokens to fellow adventurers within the same party as the owner.

People, such as me, made transmutation and purchasing decisions on the premise that they can equip their party with URTEs just like they can with any other token.

Well, to take you on a stroll down memory lane, the year was 2008, and there was a whole thread (and discussion) about it:

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=68297#68304

waytoomuchcoffee wrote: Remember what Jeff said about the Horn.<br />

I kind of screwed up when I did not realize that people would be sharing their Horn.  Ooops.<br /><br />Please consider NOT loaning out your Horn of Plenty to other players, so that things don't get really out of hand in 2008.  I promise to make the treasure token generators much more Ingredient and Rare heavy, if you guys will not get too crazy about loaning out your HoP.  If things get nuts next year and we run out of tokens, then we may have to take steps to insure it does not happen again.<br /><br />I should have made it a Potion of Treasure Finding....

And I do specifically recall that the issue (loaning of treasure enhancers) has popped up every now and then.

Incognito wrote: Well, to take you on a stroll down memory lane, the year was 2008, and there was a whole thread (and discussion) about it:

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=68297#68304

And I do specifically recall that the issue (loaning of treasure enhancers) has popped up every now and then.

Anti-loaning was discussed here:

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=61&id=75595#75596

in August 2008

Mike Steele wrote: Just as an FYI, TD really discourages anyone loaning a Horn of Plenty to anyone unless it is someone they are on a run with, during that run.  <br /><br />Thanks,<br />Mike

Lockwood wrote: As Mike said, I remember Jeff asking that they not be loaned out.  I did however see that the Gaming etc. Booth had one for $400.

The issue was brought up again in 2012:

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=61&id=151489&start=12

Mike Steele wrote:

ian ferguson wrote: I may have to try and 'rent' one for the 4 days. May be easier to get the use of one then trying to buy it.

I wonder if that would be frowned upon by Jeff. I remember a number of years ago, there were some people planning on renting out their Horns of Plenty repeatedly during GENCON, and Jeff was unhappy enough about that plan that he was thinking of creating some sort of registry so that each Horn could only be used by one person (kind of like soul-bonding I guess). Fortunately the people that were thinking of renting them out dropped the idea, so Jeff didn't have to do anything to prevent it.

This issue was mentioned yet again just last year:

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=243634&start=48#257999

Mike Steele wrote: That was almost a problem with the Horns of Plenty back in the day, with people floating the idea of basically "renting" out Horns of Plenty over and over again for a share of the loot. Jeff was so concerned about that he was thinking of solutions like numbering them and limiting the number of times they could be used or "soul bonding" them so each could only be used by one specific person, to prevent it. Fortunately (I think) that nipped that in the bud. I hope that doesn't start becoming an issue. Of course, if someone does that, they are taking a risk that someone might walk with their $1,000 tokens.

(jedibcg participated in that thread).


truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=590&id=243698&limitstart=0

Picc wrote: Id be curious as to TPTB's opinions about loaning out treasure enhancers. I know there wad a point in the last where they had asked for people not to do it. Was that ever officially recinded?

(Matthew Hayward participated in that thread, so he should have seen Picc's post)


And we talked about this again during token development:

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=594&id=244025&start=72#267359

Mike Steele wrote: I'm not worried about loaning our Treasure Enhancing tokens to people that someone is on a run with. I am concerned about loaning them to people for runs that someone is not on. I hope that Jeff reiterates a policy against that, like he did back in the day when people were talking of doing that with the Horns of Plenty.

and here:

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=527&id=244042&start=156#268858

Mike Steele wrote: 2) Re-emphasize rule against loaning out Treasure Enhancing Tokens on runs you're not on (Easy to implement, more difficult to enforce). This rule was issued back when people were talking of loaning out their Horns of Plenty. The community self-enforced this when Jeff requested it, hopefully today's community could do the same.

* Mike has somewhat twisted Jeff's statement to emphasize loaning treasure enhancers to runs you are not on, but Jeff's original statement (back in 2008-ish) was simply about "loaning", with no specification on whether or not you are on the run.


Lastly, I do want to point out the interesting discussion that jedibcg and Matthew Hayward had here:

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=569&id=201146&limitstart=0

The emphasis was on renting tokens, but there was some mention of loaning tokens.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Unusual because during the entire crafting period of the CoA, and the entire purchase period of the AoTF and ISSN there has been no mention of a request to not loan these tokens to fellow adventurers within the same party as the owner.

People, such as me, made transmutation and purchasing decisions on the premise that they can equip their party with URTEs just like they can with any other token.

In the previous post, I pointed out several mentions of the request to not loan tokens from last year, so there HAS been mention of that request.

Incognito wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Unusual because during the entire crafting period of the CoA, and the entire purchase period of the AoTF and ISSN there has been no mention of a request to not loan these tokens to fellow adventurers within the same party as the owner.

People, such as me, made transmutation and purchasing decisions on the premise that they can equip their party with URTEs just like they can with any other token.

In the previous post, I pointed out several mentions of the request to not loan tokens from last year, so there HAS been mention of that request.

Maybe it's ambiguous, or maybe I'm thick. But, it was always my understanding that people were requested not to lend any tokens to people who were not in your party. I never interpreted it as not lending to people in your party.

Otherwise, every GT run, and every other Nightmare party organized on the forums would be in violation, and I would think somebody would have said something by now

Incognito wrote:

Incognito wrote: Well, to take you on a stroll down memory lane, the year was 2008, and there was a whole thread (and discussion) about it:

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=68297#68304

And I do specifically recall that the issue (loaning of treasure enhancers) has popped up every now and then.

Anti-loaning was discussed here:

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=61&id=75595#75596

in August 2008

Mike Steele wrote: Just as an FYI, TD really discourages anyone loaning a Horn of Plenty to anyone unless it is someone they are on a run with, during that run.  <br /><br />Thanks,<br />Mike

Lockwood wrote: As Mike said, I remember Jeff asking that they not be loaned out.  I did however see that the Gaming etc. Booth had one for $400.

The issue was brought up again in 2012:

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=61&id=151489&start=12

Mike Steele wrote:

ian ferguson wrote: I may have to try and 'rent' one for the 4 days. May be easier to get the use of one then trying to buy it.

I wonder if that would be frowned upon by Jeff. I remember a number of years ago, there were some people planning on renting out their Horns of Plenty repeatedly during GENCON, and Jeff was unhappy enough about that plan that he was thinking of creating some sort of registry so that each Horn could only be used by one person (kind of like soul-bonding I guess). Fortunately the people that were thinking of renting them out dropped the idea, so Jeff didn't have to do anything to prevent it.

This issue was mentioned yet again just last year:

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=243634&start=48#257999

Mike Steele wrote: That was almost a problem with the Horns of Plenty back in the day, with people floating the idea of basically "renting" out Horns of Plenty over and over again for a share of the loot. Jeff was so concerned about that he was thinking of solutions like numbering them and limiting the number of times they could be used or "soul bonding" them so each could only be used by one specific person, to prevent it. Fortunately (I think) that nipped that in the bud. I hope that doesn't start becoming an issue. Of course, if someone does that, they are taking a risk that someone might walk with their $1,000 tokens.

(jedibcg participated in that thread).


truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=590&id=243698&limitstart=0

Picc wrote: Id be curious as to TPTB's opinions about loaning out treasure enhancers. I know there wad a point in the last where they had asked for people not to do it. Was that ever officially recinded?

(Matthew Hayward participated in that thread, so he should have seen Picc's post)


And we talked about this again during token development:

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=594&id=244025&start=72#267359

Mike Steele wrote: I'm not worried about loaning our Treasure Enhancing tokens to people that someone is on a run with. I am concerned about loaning them to people for runs that someone is not on. I hope that Jeff reiterates a policy against that, like he did back in the day when people were talking of doing that with the Horns of Plenty.

and here:

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=527&id=244042&start=156#268858

Mike Steele wrote: 2) Re-emphasize rule against loaning out Treasure Enhancing Tokens on runs you're not on (Easy to implement, more difficult to enforce). This rule was issued back when people were talking of loaning out their Horns of Plenty. The community self-enforced this when Jeff requested it, hopefully today's community could do the same.

* Mike has somewhat twisted Jeff's statement to emphasize loaning treasure enhancers to runs you are not on, but Jeff's original statement (back in 2008-ish) was simply about "loaning", with no specification on whether or not you are on the run.


Lastly, I do want to point out the interesting discussion that jedibcg and Matthew Hayward had here:

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=569&id=201146&limitstart=0

The emphasis was on renting tokens, but there was some mention of loaning tokens.

Stand by statement that I did not know about anything against loaning tokens. I have known about no renting which is what I said in the post. Anything back in 2008 is before my time. Thanks though. Loan tokens to those you ARE a run with and renting tokens to someone you are not on a run with are very different in my mind.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Incognito wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Unusual because during the entire crafting period of the CoA, and the entire purchase period of the AoTF and ISSN there has been no mention of a request to not loan these tokens to fellow adventurers within the same party as the owner.

People, such as me, made transmutation and purchasing decisions on the premise that they can equip their party with URTEs just like they can with any other token.

In the previous post, I pointed out several mentions of the request to not loan tokens from last year, so there HAS been mention of that request.

Maybe it's ambiguous, or maybe I'm thick. But, it was always my understanding that people were requested not to lend any tokens to people who were not in your party. I never interpreted it as not lending to people in your party.

Otherwise, every GT run, and every other Nightmare party organized on the forums would be in violation, and I would think somebody would have said something by now

Historically, Jeff's main concern has been about lending treasure-enhancing tokens, not other types of tokens (equipment, gear, etc.).

Incognito wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Incognito wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Unusual because during the entire crafting period of the CoA, and the entire purchase period of the AoTF and ISSN there has been no mention of a request to not loan these tokens to fellow adventurers within the same party as the owner.

People, such as me, made transmutation and purchasing decisions on the premise that they can equip their party with URTEs just like they can with any other token.

In the previous post, I pointed out several mentions of the request to not loan tokens from last year, so there HAS been mention of that request.

Maybe it's ambiguous, or maybe I'm thick. But, it was always my understanding that people were requested not to lend any tokens to people who were not in your party. I never interpreted it as not lending to people in your party.

Otherwise, every GT run, and every other Nightmare party organized on the forums would be in violation, and I would think somebody would have said something by now

Historically, Jeff's main concern has been about lending treasure-enhancing tokens, not other types of tokens (equipment, gear, etc.).

Yes, and look at every GT party thread since the COA was created: multiple people stating "we have a CoA for everyone." Same for most high-level parties organized on the forums. That's my point. If that's the intent, and people understood that, they wouldn't be so blatant about it.

Edit: the gist of the thread last year was that renting or borrowing tokens from mom-party members = bad. No one seemed to think borrowing from party members was a problem