TOPIC: Dealing with "wandering" Treasure Enhancers

Rob F wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Joshua Baessler wrote: How about this?

Everyone gets their starter bag of tokens already, so bags are plentiful.

Give coaches the same reams of wristbands we get for the runs.

After TEs are verified, owner of said TEs places them in starter bag and coach writes down run time and date and uses the wristband to seal it closed (or we could use zip ties if you wanted stronger security, but still attach the wristband to the bag).

Owner proceeds through dungeon to kick ass and take names.

In Epilogue room volunteer clips wristband off (or ziptie, or whatever), then distributes treasure.

No bag? No treasure.
No wristband on TE bag? No treasure.
Time on wristband does not match your run? No treasure.
Wristband or ziptie not intact? No treasure.

Coaches would have to have some spare bags or larger bags on hand for the people who have more than just 10 CoAs, but I don't think that would be a problem.

This actually seems pretty bulletproof.

Instead of giving coaches wristbands they could be given a card or piece of paper to write date and time on and put it into the pouch with the TEs.

If on the other end the pouch doesn't have the right info we know it wasn't sealed / bagged by a coach for this person.

Cards/paper could be color coded (e.g. purple post it notes for Puzzle on Friday) to make it harder to game.

This could be done in the training room, as by then the party card will designate who has TEs.

It seems like a lot of extra work for volunteers and players. It seems like quite a bit of time to get all those tokens out, get them in the bags, mark the bags and seal them, and then reverse the process at the end. It seems to add risk also, as personally I think the tokens are more safe sealed in the binder than being taken out of the binder, put in bags, carried through the Dungeon in your pocket in the bags, and then sorted back in. TE Tokens could be dropped or lost in the various phases of this, or the bag of tokens could be lost.

The idea of checking them in the training room, and treating the training room like a Dungeon room in which you're not allowed to exit once you enter, seems a simpler process and should work equally well. If combined with the matrix of TE Tokens & Character classes on the back of the Character card, all the Training room person needs to do is verify that the TE tokens marked on the Matrix are in the possession of the players, which should be pretty quick and painless.

I really don't think you can "not allow" someone to leave a room. If someone says they have to leave for any reason (bathroom, not feeling well, whatever) at any point in time they should be allowed to leave. A TD volunteer should have no authority to tell them they can't.

Good point, perhaps I should phrase it differently.

The training room would be treated like the 7 Dungeon rooms. If someone leaves it, their adventure is over and they cannot return. That would have to be communicated very clearly in the Coaching room before people went into the Training Room.

That could work

I dont think sealing the coaching room is a great idea, people leave frequently to use the restroom before their games start.

Mongo wrote: I own 10 CoA's (there are five people in my immediate family who now play TD)... can I lend the other nine to the others in my party for the run or is that illegal? Most runs I do there are around eight players with their own, and I think being able to lend two out for my own party is nice, but I will stop doing itif that is taboo.

Ro-gan wrote: The problem is that the same CoAs are being used simultaneously on different Runs. That's the only issue, Mongo. What you are doing is fine.

Mike Steele wrote: That's not the only issue. Jeff Martin pretty clearly requested before TDC that people not loan their TE tokens to groups they aren't on. That's regardless of whether it's simultaneous with one of your runs.

I do agree that what Mongo is doing is fine per the current guidance. There don't seem to be any restrictions on loaning your TE tokens to people who are on the same run you are on.

It is still vague what the extent of the problem is.

Most players are operating under this assumption but this is NOT exactly what Jeff said.

Mike Steele wrote: "We'd much appreciate it if players would refrain from loaning out treasure-enhancing tokens -- especially if you are not going on the run. If players are going to claim the use/benefit of a treasure enhancing token, they must show it to the Coach AND retain it on their person throughout the whole adventure. And then they must show these tokens to the person in the Epilogue Room to claim their bonus Treasure Chips. I am sorry we have to go to these measures, but things got a wee bit out of hand last year. Thank you for your understanding in this matter. "

Note the use of the word ESPECIALLY. That doesn't automatically mean that it is okay if you are on the run.

For example, let's say:

"We'd much appreciate it if players would refrain from groping NPC's - especially if you are male."

That indicates that the emphasis is on male players groping NPC's. That does NOT mean that it is okay to grope NPC's if you are not male (i.e. female players are permitted go grope NPC's).

I feel bad now...

I didn't mean to violate the rules... And I am sorry.

Until I hear different, I will keep them within my own family for now.

This kind of defeat the purpose of owning 10 CoA's and the Silver Nuggets... unless I can still use them when I try to solo (assuming we can at GenCon, unlike TDC where it was banned, but the reason it was banned made sense... to give more people a chance to enjoy).

Mongo wrote: I feel bad now...

I didn't mean to violate the rules... And I am sorry.

Until I hear different, I will keep them within my own family for now.

This kind of defeat the purpose of owning 10 CoA's and the Silver Nuggets... unless I can still use them when I try to solo (assuming we can at GenCon, unlike TDC where it was banned, but the reason it was banned made sense... to give more people a chance to enjoy).

It's unclear what the rules are.

And *if* you are violating the rules, then A LOT of people are violating the rules. (But that is certainly possible, as you've seen with many cases where people are mistaken on the rules).

It also creates an interesting situation in that Jeff has often used treasure enhancers and synergy type items to help boost sales. So it would be a bit...questionable...if any sort of lending was not allowed at all.

That's why this is a big gray area....

I hope we are able to come up with a good solution to solve the issue of passing tokens other groups while we are still on our run...

I also bought lots of extra tokens this year to have my own set of 10 charms of synergy and 10 silver nuggets... 20 ur's plus the others I wanted required more than an 8k order... and I am not selling my tokens to help offset my costs...

Joshua Baessler wrote: How about this?

Everyone gets their starter bag of tokens already, so bags are plentiful.

Give coaches the same reams of wristbands we get for the runs.

After TEs are verified, owner of said TEs places them in starter bag and coach writes down run time and date and uses the wristband to seal it closed (or we could use zip ties if you wanted stronger security, but still attach the wristband to the bag).

Owner proceeds through dungeon to kick ass and take names.

In Epilogue room volunteer clips wristband off (or ziptie, or whatever), then distributes treasure.

No bag? No treasure.
No wristband on TE bag? No treasure.
Time on wristband does not match your run? No treasure.
Wristband or ziptie not intact? No treasure.

Coaches would have to have some spare bags or larger bags on hand for the people who have more than just 10 CoAs, but I don't think that would be a problem.

It's a decent idea, although more work for the coach for sure. If we went this route, these cost $0.18/ea:

www.cabletiesandmore.com/pull-tight-ties.php

The coach would write down the number for each person on the party card. Again, not a bad idea, but not sure if the coaches in general can handle this extra workload.

Joshua Long wrote: Sounds like the consensus is starting to drift towards doing the initial audit in the training room with a policy of once you enter you can not leave. Then a controlled flow of people in the epilogue where all TE's are presented at once prior. (Though the way in which the TE's are presented still seems to be in flux of each person showing only their characters vs all at once.)

If the process in the epilogue room is done correctly, the TE's can just be shown there. I see no reason why the TEs would also have to be shown any time before the epilogue room (unless the coach wants to calculate the synergy bonus and write that on the party card, but that's not strictly necessary).

The epilogue room would provide for a single-file experience and make sure nobody comes in through any other method besides room #7 in the dungeon. By default players show their treasure enhancers one at a time. For cases where one player has all or most of the treasure enhancers and doesn't want to hand them out, then provide a fixed spot on the table to lay all of them out at once.

I understand the desire for some people (e.g. Mike Steele) to keep all of the TEs in his storage solution, but I think they need to be required to come out so the volunteer in the epilogue room can physically touch them and verify they are legitimate. It is something us players can get used to. For example, at TDC, I wore a "money belt" around my neck and put all of my treasure-enhancers in there and left it under my shirt in the dungeon. It wasn't hard to pull them out in the epilogue room.

If the intention is to allow absolutely no sharing even within your party, then the only option is to reprint the CoAs with your name on them (making them soulbound) or adding serial numbers.

Of course note that I'm sure that will negatively affect the future collection of treasure enhancers if they can't be shared; few will get more than one of them, and if they are soulbound then they have little or no resale value.

A very similar idea has been pitched, but here is my version.

The TD staff has a large selection of unique stamps. In the coaching room the TE tokens are shown to the coach who verifies them and then the player places them in an envelope and seals them (any standard mailing envelope would work). The coach then stamps the envelope with a unique ink stamp for that party and moves on to the next player.

Once all of the TEs are sealed up the coach writes the total number of pulls for each player on the party card (I think this is standard already?) and then stamps the party card with the same stamp. The players put their sealed envelopes into their pockets.

In the epilogue room as the players come up they only need to show the sealed envelope with the stamp that matches the one on the party card. Then take the number of pulls recorded.

The supplies would be inexpensive and I think it would meet all of the criteria.

Incognito wrote:

Mongo wrote: I own 10 CoA's (there are five people in my immediate family who now play TD)... can I lend the other nine to the others in my party for the run or is that illegal? Most runs I do there are around eight players with their own, and I think being able to lend two out for my own party is nice, but I will stop doing itif that is taboo.

Ro-gan wrote: The problem is that the same CoAs are being used simultaneously on different Runs. That's the only issue, Mongo. What you are doing is fine.

Mike Steele wrote: That's not the only issue. Jeff Martin pretty clearly requested before TDC that people not loan their TE tokens to groups they aren't on. That's regardless of whether it's simultaneous with one of your runs.

I do agree that what Mongo is doing is fine per the current guidance. There don't seem to be any restrictions on loaning your TE tokens to people who are on the same run you are on.

It is still vague what the extent of the problem is.

Most players are operating under this assumption but this is NOT exactly what Jeff said.

Mike Steele wrote: "We'd much appreciate it if players would refrain from loaning out treasure-enhancing tokens -- especially if you are not going on the run. If players are going to claim the use/benefit of a treasure enhancing token, they must show it to the Coach AND retain it on their person throughout the whole adventure. And then they must show these tokens to the person in the Epilogue Room to claim their bonus Treasure Chips. I am sorry we have to go to these measures, but things got a wee bit out of hand last year. Thank you for your understanding in this matter. "

Note the use of the word ESPECIALLY. That doesn't automatically mean that it is okay if you are on the run.

For example, let's say:

"We'd much appreciate it if players would refrain from groping NPC's - especially if you are male."

That indicates that the emphasis is on male players groping NPC's. That does NOT mean that it is okay to grope NPC's if you are not male (i.e. female players are permitted go grope NPC's).

Female players groping NPC's??? Think it's about time for me to throw my hat into the volunteer pool!!

Andrew Haas wrote: A very similar idea has been pitched, but here is my version.

The TD staff has a large selection of unique stamps. In the coaching room the TE tokens are shown to the coach who verifies them and then the player places them in an envelope and seals them (any standard mailing envelope would work). The coach then stamps the envelope with a unique ink stamp for that party and moves on to the next player.

Once all of the TEs are sealed up the coach writes the total number of pulls for each player on the party card (I think this is standard already?) and then stamps the party card with the same stamp. The players put their sealed envelopes into their pockets.

In the epilogue room as the players come up they only need to show the sealed envelope with the stamp that matches the one on the party card. Then take the number of pulls recorded.

The supplies would be inexpensive and I think it would meet all of the criteria.

+2. Like this idea.

Incognito wrote:

Mongo wrote: I own 10 CoA's (there are five people in my immediate family who now play TD)... can I lend the other nine to the others in my party for the run or is that illegal? Most runs I do there are around eight players with their own, and I think being able to lend two out for my own party is nice, but I will stop doing itif that is taboo.

Ro-gan wrote: The problem is that the same CoAs are being used simultaneously on different Runs. That's the only issue, Mongo. What you are doing is fine.

Mike Steele wrote: That's not the only issue. Jeff Martin pretty clearly requested before TDC that people not loan their TE tokens to groups they aren't on. That's regardless of whether it's simultaneous with one of your runs.

I do agree that what Mongo is doing is fine per the current guidance. There don't seem to be any restrictions on loaning your TE tokens to people who are on the same run you are on.

It is still vague what the extent of the problem is.

Most players are operating under this assumption but this is NOT exactly what Jeff said.

Mike Steele wrote: "We'd much appreciate it if players would refrain from loaning out treasure-enhancing tokens -- especially if you are not going on the run. If players are going to claim the use/benefit of a treasure enhancing token, they must show it to the Coach AND retain it on their person throughout the whole adventure. And then they must show these tokens to the person in the Epilogue Room to claim their bonus Treasure Chips. I am sorry we have to go to these measures, but things got a wee bit out of hand last year. Thank you for your understanding in this matter. "

Note the use of the word ESPECIALLY. That doesn't automatically mean that it is okay if you are on the run.

For example, let's say:

"We'd much appreciate it if players would refrain from groping NPC's - especially if you are male."

That indicates that the emphasis is on male players groping NPC's. That does NOT mean that it is okay to grope NPC's if you are not male (i.e. female players are permitted go grope NPC's).

If the intent was to ban all loaning, then everything in that sentence after the dash was unneccesary and muddied the waters. If the intent was to ban, then it would have been better to use stronger language than "much appreciate."


We need some clarity on this topic.

But if the ruling is such that I can't let my son use my second CoA when he is running with me, I will be pretty unhappy.