TOPIC: Amulet of Treasure Finding -Possibility of reprint

kurtreznor wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Arnold wrote: I disagree with both Matthew and Mike on this topic.

True Dungeon could certainly reprint every token that appreciates. Even if they did, those tokens would still be collectible.

A reprint =/= infinity more released into circulation.

Actually - basically it does.

This is because with TD PyP's get into circulation by selection as a PyP.

If AoTF were reprinted but only available via random chance in 1/20,000 packs (which is their natural collation rate), or a handful thrown into the treasure boxes, that would be fine for me.

When a reprint happens in TD, the price of the token is pegged to ~$90 overnight, where it stays for at least 2 years.

This is different from reprints in Magic the Gathering or other collectibles.


To see an illustration, within the last 2 years +1 Mighty Longbow was going for $250+ on eBay.

Today I doubt you could sell one for $101.

'PYP = $90 for two years' simply is not true. While i agree that such a statement makes sense, we have seen that to not be the case. Many URs have sold for over $100 while they are still in print...and as someone who buys and sells tokens, i find it very frustrating. Why are people paying that much? But we digress...i believe ypur point was that a reprint results in immediate lost value, which is true, but no need to exaggerate the impact it has.

PYP = $90 for two years is true enough.

That someone gets bamboozled and overpays on eBay or ripped off in the forums is not proof that the market price of in print URs exceeds ~$90. Maybe it could be $100. It is almost certainly not $110. It is definitely not $150.

I routinely list in print URs for $150 - not because I'm trying to sell them at that price while they are in print, but because that's the price I hope to sell them for once they go out of print.

I don't think I have ever received an offer for an in print UR at $150 in years of doing that.

kurtreznor wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arnold wrote: Original Discussion began here:

I figured that this topic deserved it's own thread instead of piggy-backing MatthewHayward 's Fleece thread.

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote: So don't hate me and I know were not even remotely ready to talk about reprints yet, but didn't Jeff say there would be some cool TE transmute involving the AoTF?
If so, without a reprint, that seems to be rewarding a very small group of individuals. If most have been transmuted into CoA, why would he need to transmute that particular token?

The "very small group" that will be "rewarded" are those who purchased large quantities of tokens from True Dungeon, or those who stimulated demand among the first group by buying in the secondary market.

All the information about the future URTE policy was public when AoTF was in print, so the only possible reason to not have AoTF is:

1. Weren't interested / couldn't afford it while in print despite announcement it would be part of a future transmute.
2. Weren't a token collector at the time those tokens were in print.

It's a bit hard to understand the perspective that members of those two groups should get a reprint of AoTF at the expense of people who sent TD hundreds or thousands of dollars in 2015/16 for the privilege of holding a collectible token asset for around a decade so it could be transmuted.

True Dungeon Tokens are collectibles. If TD just reprints every token that appreciates, it ceases to be a collectible. If TD tokens cease to be a collectible, I suspect token revenues would substantially decrease.

I'd guess the reason Jeff announced the AoTF was going to be part of a future transmute while it was in print was to help spike sales. Since it doesn't stack with the CoA, there wouldn't be a reason for people with a CoA to get one otherwise.

I agree with Matthew that reprinting the AoTF would penalize people that tied up hundreds or thousands of dollars for a decade to make the transmute.

I disagree with both Matthew and Mike on this topic.

True Dungeon could certainly reprint every token that appreciates. Even if they did, those tokens would still be collectible.

A reprint =/= infinity more released into circulation.

As for the members who sent TD 100s/1000s of dollars 2 years ago - they will still own AoTF and would still be able to transmute them into the new Treasure Enhancer. So how in the world would these members be penalized by a reprint?

Finally - while I disagree with their argument as to why AoTF shouldn't be reprinted, I ultimately believe it will not be anyway.

On the broader topic, I kind of doubt that TE URS will be reprinted in the foreseeable future because I think it would have a huge impact on annual token sales (in my opinion). Bunches of TE tokens are bought to stockpile for future resale, and if they start getting reprinted, that might cause a big drop in sales of the current ones, as people will likely not risk stockpiling as many. I think TE URS are treated differently because they drive sales much more than other URS.

One thing I think that could change that is if Jeff at some point decides he doesn't want to create new TE tokens. In that case, he might be better off reprinting old TE URs than not offering any at all for sale. If course, that decision won't happen until 2027.

Are token sales down this year because there is no new TE? I dont think we have the info answer that question, but it seems like sales are doing just fine.

But the point is there is a TE UR available as a PYP. It might even spike sales a bit more knowing it's the last year you can get it. That's why Jeff spaces them two years apart, so that a TE UR is always orderable as a PYP. You would have to have three years between new TE URs to have a year where one wasn't orderable.

I'll save the in depth arguments about why it shouldn't be reprinted until the 2025-2027 timeframe.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

kurtreznor wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Arnold wrote: I disagree with both Matthew and Mike on this topic.

True Dungeon could certainly reprint every token that appreciates. Even if they did, those tokens would still be collectible.

A reprint =/= infinity more released into circulation.

Actually - basically it does.

This is because with TD PyP's get into circulation by selection as a PyP.

If AoTF were reprinted but only available via random chance in 1/20,000 packs (which is their natural collation rate), or a handful thrown into the treasure boxes, that would be fine for me.

When a reprint happens in TD, the price of the token is pegged to ~$90 overnight, where it stays for at least 2 years.

This is different from reprints in Magic the Gathering or other collectibles.


To see an illustration, within the last 2 years +1 Mighty Longbow was going for $250+ on eBay.

Today I doubt you could sell one for $101.

'PYP = $90 for two years' simply is not true. While i agree that such a statement makes sense, we have seen that to not be the case. Many URs have sold for over $100 while they are still in print...and as someone who buys and sells tokens, i find it very frustrating. Why are people paying that much? But we digress...i believe ypur point was that a reprint results in immediate lost value, which is true, but no need to exaggerate the impact it has.

PYP = $90 for two years is true enough.

Recent auctions prove this to be false. Im not trying to dispute your main point, just that the $90 fixed price is an unfounded exaggeration. I sold PYPs at pre-sale time for $90 and regretted not charging 95 once i saw that PYPs were consistently going for more than 90.

also sprach Jeff

Due to many factors and the development of the "Nugget" Ioun Stones, I thought it would be best to go ahead and make these clarifications.

1) We will publish an Ioun Stone Silver Nugget (+2 Treasure Coins) in 2017, an Ioun Stone Gold Nugget (+2 Treasure Coins) in 2019, and an Ioun Stone Platinum Nugget (+2 Treasure Coins) in 2021. These three tokens will stack with each other because they have slightly different names. They will stack with the Charm of Avarice.

2) There will be no transmuted token that uses any of the three Ioun Stone Nuggets in its recipe.

3) Assuming Gen Con and TD is still around in about ten years (2026) , the Amulet of Treasure Finding will be used in a transmuted token recipe to make a better treasure-enhancing token. It will be combined with whatever TE-tokens come out in 2023 and 2025.

I know it is a bit crazy to make these pronouncements this far into the future, but it appears to be needed. Thanks for your patience and support.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Arnold wrote: I disagree with both Matthew and Mike on this topic.

True Dungeon could certainly reprint every token that appreciates. Even if they did, those tokens would still be collectible.

A reprint =/= infinity more released into circulation.

Actually - basically it does.

This is because with TD PyP's get into circulation by selection as a PyP.

If AoTF were reprinted but only available via random chance in 1/2,000 packs (which is their natural collation rate), or a handful thrown into the treasure boxes, that would be fine for me.

When a reprint happens in TD, the price of the token is pegged to ~$90 overnight, where it stays for at least 2 years.

This is different from reprints in Magic the Gathering or other collectibles.


To see an illustration, within the last 2 years +1 Mighty Longbow was going for $250+ on eBay.

Today I doubt you could sell one for $101.

Infinite availability (for 2 years, at least) =/= infinity more released into circulation.

If your +1 Mighty Longbow is still worth $90, it's definitely still collectible.

kurtreznor wrote:
Actually, this is exactly why i sold all my AoTF. I also believe that there is no way Jeff will require a 10 year old token for the 2nd TE legendary without providing an alternate recipe. We have already seen this with CoA. Except this time, there is no promise to not reprint the oldest UR. I also think it works nicely as a way to allow the newest players have another shot at the CoA. But, even if there is no reprint, there will almost certainly be a second recipe.

As a new player, I appreciate your perspective.

"Nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes." - AND No HoP reprint

Druegar wrote: also sprach Jeff

Due to many factors and the development of the "Nugget" Ioun Stones, I thought it would be best to go ahead and make these clarifications.

1) We will publish an Ioun Stone Silver Nugget (+2 Treasure Coins) in 2017, an Ioun Stone Gold Nugget (+2 Treasure Coins) in 2019, and an Ioun Stone Platinum Nugget (+2 Treasure Coins) in 2021. These three tokens will stack with each other because they have slightly different names. They will stack with the Charm of Avarice.

2) There will be no transmuted token that uses any of the three Ioun Stone Nuggets in its recipe.

3) Assuming Gen Con and TD is still around in about ten years (2026) , the Amulet of Treasure Finding will be used in a transmuted token recipe to make a better treasure-enhancing token. It will be combined with whatever TE-tokens come out in 2023 and 2025.

I know it is a bit crazy to make these pronouncements this far into the future, but it appears to be needed. Thanks for your patience and support.

Druegar, thanks for reposting that. The main point of debate seems to be whether the AoTF will be reprinted in the 2026 timeframe. Jeff's way ahead you reposted is silent on that. It would be nice if that were clarified, although I'd understand if Jeff doesn't want to commit this far in advance.

Mike Steele wrote:

Druegar wrote: also sprach Jeff

Due to many factors and the development of the "Nugget" Ioun Stones, I thought it would be best to go ahead and make these clarifications.

1) We will publish an Ioun Stone Silver Nugget (+2 Treasure Coins) in 2017, an Ioun Stone Gold Nugget (+2 Treasure Coins) in 2019, and an Ioun Stone Platinum Nugget (+2 Treasure Coins) in 2021. These three tokens will stack with each other because they have slightly different names. They will stack with the Charm of Avarice.

2) There will be no transmuted token that uses any of the three Ioun Stone Nuggets in its recipe.

3) Assuming Gen Con and TD is still around in about ten years (2026) , the Amulet of Treasure Finding will be used in a transmuted token recipe to make a better treasure-enhancing token. It will be combined with whatever TE-tokens come out in 2023 and 2025.

I know it is a bit crazy to make these pronouncements this far into the future, but it appears to be needed. Thanks for your patience and support.

Druegar, thanks for reposting that. The main point of debate seems to be whether the AoTF will be reprinted in the 2026 timeframe. Jeff's way ahead you reposted is silent on that. It would be nice if that were clarified, although I'd understand if Jeff doesn't want to commit this far in advance.

The bad news is, no matter what the answer is, there will be upset people who assumed the opposite, and acted accordingly.

So we have that to look forward to.

I have a feeling that the next TE will use the points just like the COA did... so without doing a reprint the AOTF could just be worth a lot more points. For example

AOTF could be worth say 4-5 points...
next released TE worth 2-3 points
the TE released after that 1-2 points ect...

This allows those that kept the AOTF for this purpose to get an advantage while not depriving the newer players access to this newer mega TE. So this becomes a win for all. Jeff sells more of these to newer players, while still engaging the older players that have saved their AOTF for the long haul who still have to buy a few of the newer TEs to make the newer mega TE.

It is all about balance and to this point I think Jeff and company have done an admiral job keeping the balance despite numerous challenges...

Mike Steele wrote: I'd understand if Jeff doesn't want to commit this far in advance.

Personally, I'd rather he didn't make far-off proclamations. It's too limiting. If for reasons beyond Jeff's control the plans have to be changed, the level of butthurt goes off the charts.

Brad Mortensen wrote: there will be upset people who assumed the opposite, and acted accordingly.

Yes, there most certainly will.
The thing is--again, speaking personally, not as any kind of TD representative--if you* make an assumption and that assumption doesn't come to fruition, that's nobody's fault but your own! It's really hard for me to muster any sympathy for that kind of decision. If you want to gamble, fine, but when you lose, recognize it was your your choice to place the bet.


*The general "you", not you specifically Brad Mortensen.

Druegar wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I'd understand if Jeff doesn't want to commit this far in advance.

Personally, I'd rather he didn't make far-off proclamations. It's too limiting. If for reasons beyond Jeff's control the plans have to be changed, the level of butthurt goes off the charts.

Brad Mortensen wrote: there will be upset people who assumed the opposite, and acted accordingly.

Yes, there most certainly will.
The thing is--again, speaking personally, not as any kind of TD representative--if you* make an assumption and that assumption doesn't come to fruition, that's nobody's fault but your own! It's really hard for me to muster any sympathy for that kind of decision. If you want to gamble, fine, but when you lose, recognize it was your your choice to place the bet.


*The general "you", not you specifically Brad Mortensen.

It seems like people have to gamble or make an assumption one way or another in this situation. You can gamble that it will be reprinted and not hold onto any, and maybe miss out on the transmute if it isn't reprinted. Or you can gamble that it won't be reprinted, and hold onto it/them, and risk tying up your money for 10 years unnecessarily. Does your lack of sympathy apply to both gambles? I'm not sure how people are at fault in this situation, when they have to choose one course or the other, without any info on which is the correct one.

It seems in this case that info earlier is better than later. If it is going to reprinted, people that are holding onto them can do something else with them instead of holding onto them for 10 years unnecessarily. And if it isn't going to be reprinted, it is easier for someone to get ahold of one now that it will be in 10 years.

Druegar wrote: also sprach Jeff
]

Did anyone else hear this in their mind?

Mike Steele wrote: Does your lack of sympathy apply to both gambles?

Most definitely