TOPIC: Ethics of Selling/Buying Medallions of Nobility

While its none of my business what a store does or doesn't sell. Personally I don't think its cool to sell any of the Player level perks.

That said the conversation might be a good opportunity to talk about player level perks again (probably on another thread)

I think in the realm of TD ethics this a small fish compared to all the other things that we know have gone on. So that is all that I have to say on this topic.

I wish I had seen that token for sale... my brother hit level 6 after his first run but still hasn't gotten the medallion of nobility when he hit five...

We ended up showing his level six status in the training room on his cell phone, but the token would have made it smoother (and gotten it off the market so an unscrupulous player couldn't have bought it.)

I also haven't gotten mine when I hit level five last year...

Mongo wrote: I wish I had seen that token for sale... my brother hit level 6 after his first run but still hasn't gotten the medallion of nobility when he hit five...

We ended up showing his level six status in the training room on his cell phone, but the token would have made it smoother (and gotten it off the market so an unscrupulous player couldn't have bought it.)

I also haven't gotten mine when I hit level five last year...

Did you and your Brother order the Medallions of Nobility from the Token Store? They don't come automatically, they have to be ordered.

I don't think it's unethical, the token isn't soul bonded.

It would be unethical to use that token to represent a player level that is higher than what you yourself possess.


On the topic of Gaming ETC in general, I steer clear of them.

I offered to sell them some tokens at GC a few years back, and they offered me like, $3-10 dollars on UR tokens they had in their display case for $100.

To me that reflects one of two compatible possibilities:

1. They know their asking prices are crazy on some tokems and are waiting for a "sucker" to come along.
2. They are attempting to buy tokens at a very small fraction of their value.

I know they have to make a profit, but buying at 10 cents on the dollar is odious, as is trying to sell something for several times what you think it's worth.

Brad Mortensen wrote: I've given it more thought, and I'm gonna say, selling a MoN is analogous to selling a knife. If you sell one and it is used to commit a crime, that's the buyer's karma.

Dave wrote: My opinion (fwiw), is that there is nothing wrong ethically wanting to buy or sell a medallion for purposes of collecting tokens. It's unfortunate if Gaming etc overreacted to your comment (which doesn't sound like it was intended for them to hear), but they are just selling a token. Nothing wrong there.

If anything is unethical, it would be people passing themselves off as 5th level when they are not. Just my opinion.

Kaledor wrote: Ethics and morals relate to “right” and “wrong” conduct. While they are sometimes used interchangeably, they are different: ethics refer to rules provided by an external source, e.g., codes of conduct in workplaces or principles in religions. Morals refer to an individual's own principles regarding right and wrong. People collect tokens, some may want one for their collection and have one to carry with them at the cons. If someone purchases one to misrepresent themselves that is their moral issue not Michelle. She is selling collectible tokens.

I think this falls into more the moral issue not the ethic issue. Michelle is correct it is not illegal, it may be morally wrong to some of us but again it is not illegal.

I disagree that *all* of the responsibility falls upon the buyer. The buyer/user has primary responsibility, but that doesn't fully absolve the seller in certain circumstances.

- Sure, if a Walmart employee sells a steak knife to someone who then uses it to murder people, that wasn't unethical of the Walmart employee.

- Even a gun shop that sells a handgun that is used for a crime.

- But if a gun shop sells a military assault rifle to what are clearly white supremacists or radical Islamists and then it is used to commit a crime, then I *do* think there is some degree of moral culpability.

Same with:

- Selling bomb making materials to white supremacists or radical Islamists

- Selling chemical or biological agents to a Syrian government official (or Nazi officer)

- Selling land mines to African rebels

- Selling nuclear material to various groups

(In all cases, let's assume you conduct the business in a country where it isn't "illegal" per se).

You could argue that you're just doing commerce and it is the other party who is to blame for the use of the item, but I don't buy that.

Bayer's predecessor IG Farben was a chemical/pharmaceutical company that produced the Zyklon B that was used in Nazi concentration camps. Was IG Farben just a company and all the karma/responsibility rested on the buyer/user? (And if so, then why did Bayer eventually apologize for its role)?

Back on the issue of legality versus morality, let's look at Martin Shkreli's price hike of the Thiola drug from $1.50 to $30 per pill. It was legal so why did everyone get so upset? The company was just trying to make some money....

Brad Mortensen wrote: So, any player who is fifth level or below that uses a MoN to draw extra treasure is stealing, regardless of where they got it. Or maybe it's fraud. I'm not a lawyer, but whatever it is, it's a crime.

Cheating in a game like this is not a crime, it's an unethical and sleazy move at best - which may not even be the case at all. Maybe the person who sold it was in real dire straights - you just don't know. So let's not get ahead of ourselves and start burning witches at the stake. Legally selling a plastic sticker top token with a slug of die-cast metal molded inside of it hardly warrants calling the cops.

Please note that I am respectfully speaking on all of my points. Nothing I say is meant as a personal attack, although it will have East Coast sarcasm embedded in it. Some things being thrown out there are truly, truly outrageous like Jem and the Holograms outrageous. I'm all about heated but friendly debate.

They had one MoN token that was traded or sold to them by a player who possibly earned it and quit. Can you really blame the person who sold it if they gave up playing TD and wanted to recoup some of their investment? Maybe they did find a lost one, that is possible too. Do you know any of the circumstance that the seller was under? The point is no one does. So let's all chillax and not over react like it's a pandemic. If there was a stack of MoN in their booth then I believe that would warrant a more serious inquiry, but its not the case.

This situation does not justify anyone harassing Michelle or demonizing them as "Horrible people", they did nothing wrong or illegal. I am more disheartened at the people who are stooping to character assassination when they see an "injustice" from their point of view and the only logical conclusion they come up with is they (Gaming Store Inc) are just a unethical group of unscrupulous people. Sure, I can understand the trigger moment at seeing a MoN in the case up for sale as any dedicated player would. I even paused for a moment, but I also know how expensive it is to set up a table in a huge show like this. I don't blame them. I'm glad that they were there, they were quite friendly all the time. If someone was pushing their morals and social justice on me at a table that I paid a lot of money for to sell at, I would tell that irrational boob to go shove a token up in the dark treasure chest between their legs. If you don't like it don't shop there. Period.

I dealt with Gaming Store Inc on several occasions in person and on eBay. I actually got some great deals like the Lamp of the Efreeti for $2 as well as some other decent tokens on the cheap. At this GC, for the most part, I found that their prices overall were much better than some of the well known sellers who had really inflated prices 20-30% specifically at Gen Con. Is that immoral too?

It's all perspective.

JACKOFTRADZE wrote: This situation does not justify anyone harassing Michelle or demonizing them as "Horrible people", they did nothing wrong or illegal. I am more disheartened at he people who are stooping to character assassination when they see an "injustice" from their point of view and the only logical conclusion they come up with is they (Gaming Store Inc) are just a unethical group of unscrupulous people.

Where was there harassment, demonization as "horrible people," or character assassination?

From the very first post, I clearly stated that Gaming Etc. did not do anything illegal.

However, I do disagree with the selling of Medallions of Nobility (and Cogwind Medallions) and I do think it is unethical. Am I not allowed to have a civilized discussion about the said ethics/morals of it?

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: i have bought a few collections over the years. The token was in there. I waited until a fall night. Built a great fire, waited until the coals were nice and hot. Then put the token on there and watched it go up in flames

So Lazlo, why *didn't* you resell those Medallions of Nobility?

Incognito wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: i have bought a few collections over the years. The token was in there. I waited until a fall night. Built a great fire, waited until the coals were nice and hot. Then put the token on there and watched it go up in flames

So Lazlo, why *didn't* you resell those Medallions of Nobility?

I didn't because I would be damned if a newbie got an extra treaure pull that didn't earn it.
Probably not
The right reason. I held onto them for a
While incase someone I knew and trusted said
They
Lost it


But in the end it was because in my eyes it was like someone buying TD card with the code on it. It wasn't earned. Those two things should be earned( in my eyes)

@JACKOFTRADZE - I said "crime" because you're claiming something of material and monetary value (a treasure chip). It's more than cheating; it's stealing. Yes, it's a petty crime and unlikely to result in a call to the cops, let alone jail time, but it is a crime nonetheless. That is indisputable.

Using a fake build on an app to claim undeserved combat bonuses is cheating, and not a crime.

But BC is right, it's not the worst thing. The crimes at GHC of claiming CoA treasure from multiple simultaneous runs were much worse, but it's only a matter of degree. It's all theft.

The medallion hasn't ever appeared to buy for my brother or I when we have tried to order items... or transmute. We both are level six as shown when we log on...

Is there something we need to do so the token becomes addable?