TOPIC: Should Eldritch set bonuses be adjusted?

Perhaps the current 2-piece Eldritch Set bonus could become the 2-piece Grand Eldritch Set bonus?

OK, here are some of my thoughts on this subject: Executive Summary - I don't think the LoDS or Eldritch Set Bonuses should change.

1) Jeff ruled on this two years ago, and the basic facts haven't changed. It's true that the Kilt was added as an Eldritch Token, but Jeff was well aware of the Eldritch Bonuses when he made his decision. It's true that over the next number of years there will be more people with the 2 Eldritch Bonus, but there are a bunch of people with it already. In his ruling (which I referenced in a previous post), Jeff ruled to leave the LoDS bonus as-is, specifically referencing the interaction with the Eldritch Set. To me, that resolves the issue, and I'm guessing that Jeff feels the same way and is in no hurry to reopen this can of worms after already giving a definitive ruling on it.

2) If the amount of healing available is bothering any particular group, that is very easy to fix without changing a bonus that has been in place for 7 years and that people have based multi-thousand dollar purchases on. It is easy for any group to not outfit these particular tokens, or if they are outfitted just reduce the amount of healing they provide. It's very easy for a group to do this modification themselves without a drastic change that affects everyone.

3) I think this is a solution in search of a problem that doesn't exist. Why undertake a change of this nature unless it is going to significantly alter player's experiences for the better? I haven't heard of anyone having any terrible Dungeon experiences because their healers were too good at healing. I've never heard of anyone complain about it as a negative in their Dungeon run feedback on the forums. Every single time a player has been healed on a run I've been on, they've been very happy about it. And if players surviving helps increase player satisfaction and retention, the powers that be might not see it as a problem either. If they did see it as a problem, I don't think the Kilt would have been another Eldritch Token. I actually think changing this rule might result in less player satisfaction. I've seen firsthand players quit True Dungeon because of a Dungeon being too difficult and/or them not surviving far enough and often enough. I've never seen someone quit because they got too much healing.

4) I really don't think the amount of healing is a problem. It actually sounds currently like BIS groups could have zero healing bonuses from LoDS and Eldritch sets and still not be challenged on Nightmare. The real problem to address is an appropriate difficulty level to challenge groups with top skills and/or tokens.

5) I actually think most groups want the Illusion of the possibility of death rather than the actual possibility of death (similar I think to most role-playing groups). They want to feel there is a chance of defeat, but they want to overcome that and be victorious in the end.

Ideal Scenario:

Players fight a difficult fight against a fearsome opponent, taking some big hits, getting healed from them and diving back into combat, fighting nearly to the end of the room's time, and coming out victorious in the end.

Non-Ideal Scenario #1:

Players defeat the monster easily, with no real challenge, and lots of empty time left at the end of the room. (this seems to be happening now a lot)

Non-Ideal Scenario #2:

Players fight a difficult fight against a fearsome opponent, take big hits, don't get healed, die, and fail to defeat the monster. (To me, the SMOAK years epitomized this, and I think player retention took a hit in those years).


It sounds like right now a lot of groups are facing non-ideal scenario #1. I think if the monster's difficulty is ramped up AND healing is significantly decreased, the possibility of Non-Ideal Scenario #2 increases.

Increasing the Monster Difficulty level on Nightmare and above and leaving healing as-is to me increases the chances of the ideal scenario.

6) Bottom Line - I think the LoDS and the Eldritch Set Bonuses should stay unchanged, as I don't think they are causing any problem (and a group can change their own healing if it bothers them) and a difficulty level be introduced which provides a proper challenge to BIS groups (including more area attacks or more multiple attacks per turn).

Mike Steele wrote: 1) Jeff ruled on this two years ago, and the basic facts haven't changed. It's true that the Kilt was added as an Eldritch Token, but Jeff was well aware of the Eldritch Bonuses when he made his decision. It's true that over the next number of years there will be more people with the 2 Eldritch Bonus, but there are a bunch of people with it already. In his ruling (which I referenced in a previous post), Jeff ruled to leave the LoDS bonus as-is, specifically referencing the interaction with the Eldritch Set. To me, that resolves the issue, and I'm guessing that Jeff feels the same way and is in no hurry to reopen this can of worms after already giving a definitive ruling on it.

Just as a matter of fact, we:

a. Don't know whether Jeff had decided to add a 3 year Eldritch UR transmute at the point that the ruling was made.

b. Do know that the first take at the 3 year Eldritch UR transmute during design for the 2017 tokens was planned for the lenses slot, which would certainly make difference in this conversation, as if you're getting to your Eldrtich 2 piece with a Lense slot item you can't equip Lenses of Divine Sight (unless you are Lazlo).

My only comment: if your best argument for your position is that you're not allowed to disagree with it, then you don't have a very strong argument.

Kirk Bauer wrote: Perhaps the current 2-piece Eldritch Set bonus could become the 2-piece Grand Eldritch Set bonus?

Since there is only one Grand Eldritch token, how would that work?

Grand Eldritch plus one (or two) Relic Eldritch?

Or maybe the teeth set is a second Grand Eldritch.


If the Rod is required it limits the pool to somewhat over 200 people. That may be good or bad. I could see some relatively new players grumbling about the ruling favoring old time vets at their expense.

Question.

Do those who see the bonus as a problem feel the problem is primarily with the 0 level spells?

Or all healing spells?

Harlax wrote: Question.

Do those who see the bonus as a problem feel the problem is primarily with the 0 level spells?

Or all healing spells?

It certainly is obvious with level 0 spells but even if all healing spells were 3rd level it would be the same problem - Cleric gets +100 healing (10 spells x +10 hp healed), and 200 with the LoDS.

Ed

Executive Summary - The Eldritch Set Needs a Correction

Background - The Eldritch Set is obtained by equipping at least 2 of the existing Eldritch items:

• Ring of Supreme Elemental Command (2012 Eldritch)
• Rod of Seven Parts (2014 Grand Eldritch )
• Boots of Four Wind (2016 Eldritch)
• Kilt of Unknown Power (2019 Eldritch - Name Not Finalized, confirmed 3 tokens)
• Teeth of Cavadar (2021 Grand Eldritch - Name Not Finalized, confirmed 7 tokens)

Current Set Bonuses (find more @ TokenDB at tokendb.com/token/rod-of-seven-parts/ )

Eldritch Duo
When at least two items are equipped, spellcasters ignore Spell Resistance, healing spells heal an additional 10 HP (see Multi-Target Note below), and melee attacks ignore Damage Reduction. Druids or Rangers with at least two Eldritch items gain one character level. (+level effects do not stack)

Eldritch Trio
Same as the duo, except any class wearing at least three Eldritch items gains one character level. (+level effects do not stack)

There are a lot of good points on why the set bonus should not be changed and this decision is not the case of clear right or wrong choice. It is question of what is best for the game and only Jeff will be able to decide that.

A) In my opinion, Jeff attempted to correct what he saw as an issue with the Eldritch 2 piece set and got a lot of push back from the community because he had already ruled one way. Why the push back, because everyone loves their character power. What is difficult to do is to step out of the game and look and predict the impact of a overly powerful item. As we see now the bonus is overkill and if not corrected will continue to unbalance the game. If TD gets too unbalanced it will lose players similar to the issues Magic had. We need to remain vigilant and take action sooner rather than later.

B) Matthew has already done a wonderful power analysis ( truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=244806&start=24#281236 ) showing with the Eldritch set bonus (+10 Heal) alone adding 100 (10 heal spells) hps of curing. If you add in the Lenses of Divine Sight (2014 OOP) that will double it to 200. This alone is keeping the parties well healed.

C) Couple the plentiful healing with the additional Eldritch pieces in the next few years (2020, 2021) the amount of 2 and 3 piece Eldritch sets will significantly increase thereby increasing the already abundant healing thereby aggravating the game balance issue.

D) So why is too much healing bad? It creates issue balancing the dungeon. It can marginalize new players when they only heal for 1 point on a spell and another heals for 11. Before they know why they feel insignificant.

E) It will be easier to get the 2 piece set and the current bonus favors Druid/Ranger - this will cause new players that have just gotten their 2 piece set to play that class for 5th level. Increasing the demand for two already crowded classes.

F) The most powerful tokens in the game (barring Artifacts) are Legendary. Two legendary tokens add +5 healing (Drue's +5 Baton of Focus and Relsa's Ring of Supreme Focus) - a two piece Eldritch set should not have the power of two legendary tokens.

G) If a change is going to be made it should be made sooner rather than later so players can make appropriate plans which includes their purchasing plans.

So how do we fix this problem. There are many possibilities and I am fine with any that promote good game balance and forward thinking. Here is my personal choice. I am not saying it is the best and would gladly see a correction over none.

Proposed 2 Piece Bonus
+1 to character level, +4 Healing (this gives the bonus the level of just over 2 Relic pieces - Charm of Heroism and Ring of Greater Focus)

Proposed 3 Piece Bonus
+1 to character level, +6 Healing, 50% Damage/Spell Resistance mitigation

Proposed 4 Piece Bonus
+1 to character level, +8 Healing, 50% Damage/Spell Resistance mitigation, +3 Damage (All Types)

Proposed 5 Piece Bonus
TBD

This gives the growth possibilities for the 5/6/7 set if ever created. Odds are the players that have the 3 piece set bonus now will be getting the tokens for the 4/5 so ultimately for them it will be a negligible loss in power. For the new players coming in and only getting a 2 or maybe 3 set they still get a strong set bonus.

What if we just wait and see? That is an option and there will likely be more push back on a change because people will be getting close to the set bonus. If we wait too long we may not be able to recover.

Ed

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: 1) Jeff ruled on this two years ago, and the basic facts haven't changed. It's true that the Kilt was added as an Eldritch Token, but Jeff was well aware of the Eldritch Bonuses when he made his decision. It's true that over the next number of years there will be more people with the 2 Eldritch Bonus, but there are a bunch of people with it already. In his ruling (which I referenced in a previous post), Jeff ruled to leave the LoDS bonus as-is, specifically referencing the interaction with the Eldritch Set. To me, that resolves the issue, and I'm guessing that Jeff feels the same way and is in no hurry to reopen this can of worms after already giving a definitive ruling on it.

Just as a matter of fact, we:

a. Don't know whether Jeff had decided to add a 3 year Eldritch UR transmute at the point that the ruling was made.

b. Do know that the first take at the 3 year Eldritch UR transmute during design for the 2017 tokens was planned for the lenses slot, which would certainly make difference in this conversation, as if you're getting to your Eldrtich 2 piece with a Lense slot item you can't equip Lenses of Divine Sight (unless you are Lazlo).

For balance purposes (and greater symmetry), shouldn't the proposed 3-year UR transmute really be a 4-year transmute?

Brad Mortensen wrote: My only comment: if your best argument for your position is that you're not allowed to disagree with it, then you don't have a very strong argument.

Brad, you're free to disagree with my position all you want. I didn't say nobody could disagree, just that to me it seems that Jeff already ruled on this exact issue. If you disagree with that, that's perfectly fine.

Incognito wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: 1) Jeff ruled on this two years ago, and the basic facts haven't changed. It's true that the Kilt was added as an Eldritch Token, but Jeff was well aware of the Eldritch Bonuses when he made his decision. It's true that over the next number of years there will be more people with the 2 Eldritch Bonus, but there are a bunch of people with it already. In his ruling (which I referenced in a previous post), Jeff ruled to leave the LoDS bonus as-is, specifically referencing the interaction with the Eldritch Set. To me, that resolves the issue, and I'm guessing that Jeff feels the same way and is in no hurry to reopen this can of worms after already giving a definitive ruling on it.

Just as a matter of fact, we:

a. Don't know whether Jeff had decided to add a 3 year Eldritch UR transmute at the point that the ruling was made.

b. Do know that the first take at the 3 year Eldritch UR transmute during design for the 2017 tokens was planned for the lenses slot, which would certainly make difference in this conversation, as if you're getting to your Eldrtich 2 piece with a Lense slot item you can't equip Lenses of Divine Sight (unless you are Lazlo).

For balance purposes (and greater symmetry), shouldn't the proposed 3-year UR transmute really be a 4-year transmute?

That's what I'd thought also, but Jeff wanted a 3 year transmute. I'm guessing that the bonuses worked out best that way (maybe between the three they deal with St, Dex, and Con).

MasterED wrote: Executive Summary - The Eldritch Set Needs a Correction

Background - The Eldritch Set is obtained by equipping at least 2 of the existing Eldritch items:

• Ring of Supreme Elemental Command (2012 Eldritch)
• Rod of Seven Parts (2014 Grand Eldritch )
• Boots of Four Wind (2016 Eldritch)
• Kilt of Unknown Power (2019 Eldritch - Name Not Finalized, confirmed 3 tokens)
• Teeth of Cavadar (2021 Grand Eldritch - Name Not Finalized, confirmed 7 tokens)

Current Set Bonuses (find more @ TokenDB at tokendb.com/token/rod-of-seven-parts/ )

Eldritch Duo
When at least two items are equipped, spellcasters ignore Spell Resistance, healing spells heal an additional 10 HP (see Multi-Target Note below), and melee attacks ignore Damage Reduction. Druids or Rangers with at least two Eldritch items gain one character level. (+level effects do not stack)

Eldritch Trio
Same as the duo, except any class wearing at least three Eldritch items gains one character level. (+level effects do not stack)

There are a lot of good points on why the set bonus should not be changed and this decision is not the case of clear right or wrong choice. It is question of what is best for the game and only Jeff will be able to decide that.

A) In my opinion, Jeff attempted to correct what he saw as an issue with the Eldritch 2 piece set and got a lot of push back from the community because he had already ruled one way. Why the push back, because everyone loves their character power. What is difficult to do is to step out of the game and look and predict the impact of a overly powerful item. As we see now the bonus is overkill and if not corrected will continue to unbalance the game. If TD gets too unbalanced it will lose players similar to the issues Magic had. We need to remain vigilant and take action sooner rather than later.

B) Matthew has already done a wonderful power analysis ( truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=244806&start=24#281236 ) showing with the Eldritch set bonus (+10 Heal) alone adding 100 (10 heal spells) hps of curing. If you add in the Lenses of Divine Sight (2014 OOP) that will double it to 200. This alone is keeping the parties well healed.

C) Couple the plentiful healing with the additional Eldritch pieces in the next few years (2020, 2021) the amount of 2 and 3 piece Eldritch sets will significantly increase thereby increasing the already abundant healing thereby aggravating the game balance issue.

D) So why is too much healing bad? It creates issue balancing the dungeon. It can marginalize new players when they only heal for 1 point on a spell and another heals for 11. Before they know why they feel insignificant.

E) It will be easier to get the 2 piece set and the current bonus favors Druid/Ranger - this will cause new players that have just gotten their 2 piece set to play that class for 5th level. Increasing the demand for two already crowded classes.

F) The most powerful tokens in the game (barring Artifacts) are Legendary. Two legendary tokens add +5 healing (Drue's +5 Baton of Focus and Relsa's Ring of Supreme Focus) - a two piece Eldritch set should not have the power of two legendary tokens.

G) If a change is going to be made it should be made sooner rather than later so players can make appropriate plans which includes their purchasing plans.

So how do we fix this problem. There are many possibilities and I am fine with any that promote good game balance and forward thinking. Here is my personal choice. I am not saying it is the best and would gladly see a correction over none.

Proposed 2 Piece Bonus
+1 to character level, +4 Healing (this gives the bonus the level of just over 2 Relic pieces - Charm of Heroism and Ring of Greater Focus)

Proposed 3 Piece Bonus
+1 to character level, +6 Healing, 50% Damage/Spell Resistance mitigation

Proposed 4 Piece Bonus
+1 to character level, +8 Healing, 50% Damage/Spell Resistance mitigation, +3 Damage (All Types)

Proposed 5 Piece Bonus
TBD

This gives the growth possibilities for the 5/6/7 set if ever created. Odds are the players that have the 3 piece set bonus now will be getting the tokens for the 4/5 so ultimately for them it will be a negligible loss in power. For the new players coming in and only getting a 2 or maybe 3 set they still get a strong set bonus.

What if we just wait and see? That is an option and there will likely be more push back on a change because people will be getting close to the set bonus. If we wait too long we may not be able to recover.

Ed

Where does LoDS fit in your proposal?