TOPIC: Should Eldritch set bonuses be adjusted?

I say leave as is and follow Jeff's guidance on 4th and possibly 5th set bonuses.

There are many players that missed out on early eldritch's and may be trying to get in now with the teeth and kilt. Moving the goal line now would most likely not be appreciated by the newer players.

For the super hardcore token collectors hopefully an epic difficulty will be addressed.

IF a change is needed, and if it's about the Kilt and Teeth, then perhaps any change should come when those become available.

Mike Steele wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Ro-gan wrote:

Harlax wrote: I agree that the title of this thread could have been better chosen. Something like "Do we need to revise the Eldritch Set bonus"

I would support an Epic level dungeon. Why not try that first before we try radical surgery?

This. So this.

I am still working on my post but I have to respond to the question. Yes the Epic level dungeon will help with the high end token buyers. But this is about power creep. What is going to happen over the next few years is the high end abilities (Eldritch Set) will move down to the hardcore level players because anyone in the $250-$500 budget buying tokens will have Boots, Teeth, and Kilts. That means a lot more people with +10 healing which either means the hard core is going to have to get harder and will be an issue for the hard core groups that don't have the set bonus.

This doesn't impact me directly, it will impact many long TD players if power creep causes the casual player to not buy tickets which is what keeps TD around.

Ed

Like you, I'll post more later, but I wanted to comment on one thing.

i doubt everyone with a $250 - $500 token budget is going to have the Eldritch Boots, Teeth, and Kilt.

The Boots have several out of print components, and will soon be out of print. Several Tooth tokens are also out of print. There will be lots of players that missed n out on those.

If someone is buying $250 - $500 in tokens from True Dungeon, they may well be focusing on Treasure Enhancing tokens, armor and weapon tokens, or class specific tokens instead of Eldritch Tokens.

I don't dispute that there will be s lot of people with two Eldritch Tokens - there already are - but I'd guess the majority of people spending $250 - $500 per year won't have them. Certainly not all of them will.

Let me elaborate Mike. If a entry level player wanted to step up to a medium token buyer in 2013 and was spending between $250-$500 they could be getting a Eldritch 2/3 piece set in the next few years (Boots, Tooth, and Kilt). Are all of them doing that, no. Can they be yes. Anyone that wanted a two piece set in 2013 had to have a Rod and Ring. In the next few years there will be many more 2 piece sets, more 3 piece sets, and 4/5 sets possibly.

Unbalanced power levels will ultimately cause a game to spin out of control. We all hope Jeff has a handle on this - IJWT ("In Jeff We Trust")^TM.

Ed

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'll state once my thoughts:

Premise 1: A desirable state of affairs is to be able to design a dungeon that offers challenge to a broad variety of token builds, from starting 10-pack to Best in Slot.

Premise 2: If healing were too plentiful a resource relative to the damage the dungeon can dish out, the dungeon is not challenging.

Fact 1: A 5th level skill test passing Cleric with 2 rares (Medallion of Focus, Lenses of Focus) and 2 ultra rares (Ring of Focus, +2 Baton of Focus) and therefore a +5 healing bonus has:
4x Cure Minor Wounds - 4*6 HP
3x Cure Light Wounds - 3*13 HP
2x Cure Moderate Wounds - 2*21 HP
1x Cure Serious Wounds - 1*29 HP

A grand total of: 134 points of healing.

Fact 2: By adding just 1 rare, 1 ulrarare, and 2 eldricth tokens to this build (Charm of Enlightenment, Lenses of Divine Sight, any 2 Eldritch tokens), this Cleric will now have:
4x Cure Minor Wounds - 4*16*2 HP
3x Cure Light Wounds - 3*23*2 HP
2x Cure Moderate Wounds - 2*31*2 HP
1x Cure Serious Wounds - 1*39*2 HP

A grand total of: 472 points of healing.

Fact 3: Druids have a large fraction of this amount of healing as well.

Argument:

Having 4 tokens, one of which is a rare, grant 300+ points of healing is not reasonable.

It makes it impractical to design a dungeon that would challenge a party with these tokens that won't slaughter a party without, and vice versa.

Having this much healing leads to somewhat degenerate strategies with Mad Evoker's Charm, as the -10 HP downside essentially disappears when every single spell the healer has heals more than 10 hp to 2 targets.

To some extent it takes healers out of the game: there is almost nothing they can do that would be more valuable to the party than heal if they have the option. A game is a series of interesting choices - if there is one clear best action the game is less fun.

300+ healing from 4 tokens is out of line with every other healing token in the game, it devalues other items like healing potions, scrolls, regeneration items, and damage reduction items.

The proportion of players/parties with these tokens is on the rise. Jeff only knows the number of Boots of the 4 Winds in circulation relative to the Ring and the Rod, and the number of Kilt of Tavernbane that are in the wild. If we are going to make a change, now is an opportune time, rather than when even more players have the set.

For new players I imagine the overall reaction would be negative in a mixed party where a Eldrtich+Lenses Druid is dishing out literally 20x the healing as the token 10-pack Cleric. "TD is pay to win - you can't even play unless you own $5000 in tokens!" is what I imagine they would say. The gap is so huge as to be very conspicuous. Attack hit and damage is less obvious, as new players generally won't be aware of how to interpret the party card - but healing and HP is something they can see easily since they track it themselves.


Proposals (pick one or several):

1. Alter Lenses of Divine Sight so they copy only the base healing of the spell, and any bonuses are applied as a pool to the targets.

2. Change the Eldritch 2 piece bonus to not grant +10 healing, have it grant a much lower number, or have its grant always be a pool that can never be doubled.

3. Make the Eldrich Healing +10 bonus an non-stacking/non-modifiable bonus. You can take the Eldrich +10, or you can take whatever else your tokens give you, you can't combine them.

4. Leave all the tokens alone. Change the Druid and Cleric cards so that they have these as their level 0 and 1 spells instead:

1x Cure Minor Wounds: Heal 4 points among any 2 or more targets.
1x Cure Light Wounds: Heal 10 (16 with skill test) points among any 2 or more targets

Since these are not single target spells, they will not work with Lenses of Divine Sight. The Eldtrich +10 would become a pool. It would still be very powerful, just no as powerful as it is now.

5. Rename the Eldrich healing bonus the "Vow of Poverty" bonus and make it:

For every treasure chip you are entitled to this run that you forgo, gain +1 to your healing bonus (limit 10).

Great analysis Matt. +1. And i agree with your Argument.

The Eldritch 2-piece grossly distorts the environment. That was true with the 2-piece set. It got worse when the Boots were introduced. And it will get exponentially worse with the Kilt and the Teeth.


1. Too much healing can marginalize new players

There have already been stories from newbies about how their TD experiences were bad because the veteran players took over, hogged the spotlight, and left them nothing to do.

In the other thread, Rob F recalled a personal story about having too much healing diminished his experience as a new player.

Imagine that you are a newbie cleric, but you are marginalized because the tokened out Druid is healing more with his 0-level spells than you can with your 3rd-level spell.


2. Too much healing makes it hard to balance the dungeon

Nightmare is already way too easy, regardless of the ample healing but that healing makes the situation even worse.

If Jeff and other dungeon designers (like me) want to balance the dungeon, we end up needing to take more drastic steps like more one-hit kills (otherwise people will just get healed back to full next round) or anti-healing methods such as the infamous Dark Stain.

Magic resistance ends up being too hit or miss, especially due to the presence (or absence) of an Eldritch set.


3. The Eldritch set disproportionately helps the most powerful classes (Druid & Ranger)

This intersects the issue of class balance, where the Druid & Ranger (with Monk close behind) easily outstrip the other classes.

However, this also leads to greater class conflict with more people fighting over the limited number of slots.



Right now, the Eldritch set turns a 0-th level Cure Minor, which normally heals 1 HP, into 11 HP. With the Lenses of Divine Sight, that is 22 HP.

---

Unfortunately, Jeff has been rather reluctant to introduce a 4th difficulty level (Epic/Hellish/whatever).

Here are some additional solutions:

1. Revise the Eldritch set with a particular emphasis so that all classes benefit equally (i.e. Druid and Ranger don't need the extra benefit).

2. Revise the Eldritch set so that the +10 healing only applies when all characters in the party are 5th level. That should reduce the issue of the veteran player overhealing newbie parties. (If newbie parties *want* the extra healing, then it is easy enough to borrow tokens to get to 5th level).

3. If Jeff doesn't want to introduce a 4th difficulty level, then significantly boost the difficulty level of Nightmare. Jeff has tried to do this in the past but has done it only in baby steps - nowhere to the level that is needed. Yes, this means that a lot of players who currently play Nightmare will need to scale back to Hardcore.

4. Nerf the Lenses of Divine Sight even more, since they exacerbate the problem. Either remove the "with bonuses" clause or turn it into a pool.

However, my preferred solution is to redo the Eldritch set. Spread out the healing across different set levels. Rejigger the DR and MR abilities. And level the leveling bonus across all classes.

MasterED wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Ro-gan wrote:

Harlax wrote: I agree that the title of this thread could have been better chosen. Something like "Do we need to revise the Eldritch Set bonus"

I would support an Epic level dungeon. Why not try that first before we try radical surgery?

This. So this.

I am still working on my post but I have to respond to the question. Yes the Epic level dungeon will help with the high end token buyers. But this is about power creep. What is going to happen over the next few years is the high end abilities (Eldritch Set) will move down to the hardcore level players because anyone in the $250-$500 budget buying tokens will have Boots, Teeth, and Kilts. That means a lot more people with +10 healing which either means the hard core is going to have to get harder and will be an issue for the hard core groups that don't have the set bonus.

This doesn't impact me directly, it will impact many long TD players if power creep causes the casual player to not buy tickets which is what keeps TD around.

Ed

Like you, I'll post more later, but I wanted to comment on one thing.

i doubt everyone with a $250 - $500 token budget is going to have the Eldritch Boots, Teeth, and Kilt.

The Boots have several out of print components, and will soon be out of print. Several Tooth tokens are also out of print. There will be lots of players that missed n out on those.

If someone is buying $250 - $500 in tokens from True Dungeon, they may well be focusing on Treasure Enhancing tokens, armor and weapon tokens, or class specific tokens instead of Eldritch Tokens.

I don't dispute that there will be s lot of people with two Eldritch Tokens - there already are - but I'd guess the majority of people spending $250 - $500 per year won't have them. Certainly not all of them will.

Let me elaborate Mike. If a entry level player wanted to step up to a medium token buyer in 2013 and was spending between $250-$500 they could be getting a Eldritch 2/3 piece set in the next few years (Boots, Tooth, and Kilt). Are all of them doing that, no. Can they be yes. Anyone that wanted a two piece set in 2013 had to have a Rod and Ring. In the next few years there will be many more 2 piece sets, more 3 piece sets, and 4/5 sets possibly.

Unbalanced power levels will ultimately cause a game to spin out of control. We all hope Jeff has a handle on this - IJWT ("In Jeff We Trust").

Ed

So they'll have spent ~$2000 to get these three tokens (I'm going with a nice round number that I think is probably lower than reality). To get these three tokens. And they've probably fleshed the rest of their build out with rares (remember, they've been going after the Eldritch pieces instead of other PYPs).

They'd crush Hardcore, sure. But they'd probably still find a challenge with Nightmare.

The same $2000 would get them a build equipped with URs in every slot (maybe even some normal Relics), and probably be better situated to overcome Nightmare.

My first thought was 'don't mess with my Druid'. After reading Mathew Hayward's argument, I have to reluctantly agree. (nicely done by the way!) I could support many of his suggestions.

I would point out that when the Teeth combo is finished, there will be 2 items requiring 7+ years to build. I thought I remembered a thread from a year ago where the Rod and Teeth would be a different class of item, but I could be wrong. Anyway, my thought would be for the present 2 piece benefit, modified to be +1 level for any class, would be the benefit for 2 or more 7+ year items. The combination of 4 year Eldritch items, or 7+ year items, could be remapped to a more gradual increase.

Harlax wrote: IF a change is needed, and if it's about the Kilt and Teeth, then perhaps any change should come when those become available.

I think it would be very unwise to let people collect 2 more kilts and 4 more teeth and then tranmuste them and then change the rules, rather than changing them now.

Sounds like we need an "Eldritch" level difficulty.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Harlax wrote: IF a change is needed, and if it's about the Kilt and Teeth, then perhaps any change should come when those become available.

I think it would be very unwise to let people collect 2 more kilts and 4 more teeth and then tranmuste them and then change the rules, rather than changing them now.

I don't disagree. Announcement of change and effective date can be different.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Harlax wrote: IF a change is needed, and if it's about the Kilt and Teeth, then perhaps any change should come when those become available.

I think it would be very unwise to let people collect 2 more kilts and 4 more teeth and then tranmuste them and then change the rules, rather than changing them now.

Agreed. If the set is going to change it should be changed sooner rather than later. It would be fine to announce an effective date (say 2018) so people have time to adjust and plan their purchases out (i.e. 2018 tokens).

Ed

Cranston wrote: My first thought was 'don't mess with my Druid'. After reading Mathew Hayward's argument, I have to reluctantly agree. (nicely done by the way!) I could support many of his suggestions.

I would point out that when the Teeth combo is finished, there will be 2 items requiring 7+ years to build. I thought I remembered a thread from a year ago where the Rod and Teeth would be a different class of item, but I could be wrong. Anyway, my thought would be for the present 2 piece benefit, modified to be +1 level for any class, would be the benefit for 2 or more 7+ year items. The combination of 4 year Eldritch items, or 7+ year items, could be remapped to a more gradual increase.

A while back, TD and the TokenDB actually did come up with the category of "Grand Eldritch" to cover the Rod and Teeth, while "Eldritch Relic" refers to the Ring, Boots, and Kilt.

As of now, there is no in-game difference between Grand Eldritch and Eldritch Relic, but it might make sense to have certain Eldritch set bonuses require certain combinations.