TOPIC: Should Ghosting be allowed at GENCON?

MasterED wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Typical Nightmare monster AC is ~24.

I agree that sliding 10 can be a typical hit but let's start with solid facts. Numbers from 2016:

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ] [ Click to hide ]

Into The Deeperdark [24, 27, 26, 26] = 25.75
Behold Her Majesty [26 (Ranged),24,27,26] = 25.75

Ed

I wasn't shooting from the hip, I was looking over several years of data.

I agree that Nightmware AC in 2016 was unusually high. We'll have to see if that trend continues into the future.

Mike Steele wrote: If we have an spot open up (maybe someone cancels), and we fill from the wait list, we run the risk of them insisting on running on Normal mode

If you own the extra ticket and your party has already decided to run in X difficulty and you choose to make it available to someone on the wait list, you may specify that the person coming on must agree to difficulty X.

E.g., I buy a full slot of 10 tickets for me and my underwater basket weaving group because we all love running on Hardcore and enjoy each others' company. I have all ten physical tickets in my hot little hands. An hour before our run starts, I get a text from Pat's husband saying Pat can't make the run. Now I have a spare ticket. My UBWG is fine with letting a stranger join us, but we still want to run Hardcore. I go to the person running the wait list and say I have an extra ticket, but the person coming on must agree to run on Hardcore. The wait list person smiles, jots down the time & name of the dungeon, calls the next available person, and informs them a Hardcore-only slot is available. If the person declines, that person will still be at the top of the list for the next available slot, but the wait list volunteer will ask the next person on the list if Hardcore is okay with them.

However, if I (or my group) only has 9 physical tickets, I/we do not have the ability to stipulate the 10th slot be filled with someone willing to run on difficulty X.

Ghosting should be left the way it currently is.

I don't think supply is going to be much of an issue unless attendance jumps drastically, but seeing as how there are more and more opportunities to play TD at other cons there are already folks planning to skip Gencon.

Putting some ban in place is just likely to piss people off. If you force a stranger into a group that doesn't want them, that stranger is likely to have a very bad time.


If you put in a Ban how will you handle mules even if you can identify them?

If you actually think ghosting for the pure sake of treasure pulls is the problem, address people doing runs for the pulls. Its easy to argue that the 'greedy sealed runs' are "doing it for the loot" just as much as the folks that ghost are. The simple solution has already been suggested, just sell "token only" tickets. Same price as the full run get 3 tokens plus any TEs you have that can apply. If you want to make it available but limit the supply some list the tickets once every 2hrs or something and indicate you must have the ticket and no generics will be accepted.
Now you've free'd up all the runs any farmers would have taken, problem solved without messing with the ghosting policy.

This has been a very interesting thread. Lots of unknowns here though. From the posts i see that people in favor of ghosting generally believe that supply isn't an issue or that without ghosting there would be tickets left unsold. Well, those are all very nice assumptions but we all know that there's really only one way to find out for sure......ban ghosting and see.

I'm not a big fan of ghosting because to me it goes against the very spirit of gamers and Gen Con in general although I can see where in certain scenario's it may have some merit. What concerns me most is that there's always a chance, no matter how small, that the ghosted ticket just boxed out a truly awesome new player from a truly awesome experience. We need more "Raven's" and "Smak's" and "Trent's" and "Ro-gan's" and "Incognito's" coming on board each year!! And I understand that others may not want to run with new players but if it "pisses people off" then I question whether or not they should be playing anyway. If I ran my first run with veteran player's and they were "pissed off" about it just because I happened to get a ticket to their party I'm sure I would be able to tell, and that would most likely be the last time I played the game of True Dungeon. It's a game for God sake! When I used to travel to Milwaukee back in the day one of the best parts about Gen Con was being able to sit down with total strangers to learn a new game and feel totally welcome in doing so. I love organizing runs with just my friends at Gen Con but if it came down to being able to ghost a ticket because one of my friends couldn't show or letting a stranger play I'd choose the stranger every time. Pending she/he had a CoA of course!! Just kidding!!

Matthew Hayward wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Typical Nightmare monster AC is ~24.

I agree that sliding 10 can be a typical hit but let's start with solid facts. Numbers from 2016:

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ] [ Click to hide ]

Into The Deeperdark [24, 27, 26, 26] = 25.75
Behold Her Majesty [26 (Ranged),24,27,26] = 25.75

Ed

I wasn't shooting from the hip, I was looking over several years of data.

I agree that Nightmware AC in 2016 was unusually high. We'll have to see if that trend continues into the future.

It goes up due to Power Creep (Blessed AC). Expecting it to decrease would lead to disappointment.

Ed

I have been relatively quiet on the topic of Ghosting. I do have a viewpoint but what I want to say is before taking an action or making a rule...

1. Clearly identify and define the problem
2. Take a measurable action to correct problem
3. Evaluate the action against the problem and status quo
4. Repeat if necessary

I believe we don't know the problem - everyone is just guessing based upon their own personal gaming experience and opinions.

Ed

Rob F wrote: This has been a very interesting thread. Lots of unknowns here though. From the posts i see that people in favor of ghosting generally believe that supply isn't an issue or that without ghosting there would be tickets left unsold. Well, those are all very nice assumptions but we all know that there's really only one way to find out for sure......ban ghosting and see.

I'm not a big fan of ghosting because to me it goes against the very spirit of gamers and Gen Con in general although I can see where in certain scenario's it may have some merit. What concerns me most is that there's always a chance, no matter how small, that the ghosted ticket just boxed out a truly awesome new player from a truly awesome experience. We need more "Raven's" and "Smak's" and "Trent's" and "Ro-gan's" and "Incognito's" coming on board each year!! And I understand that others may not want to run with new players but if it "pisses people off" then I question whether or not they should be playing anyway. If I ran my first run with veteran player's and they were "pissed off" about it just because I happened to get a ticket to their party I'm sure I would be able to tell, and that would most likely be the last time I played the game of True Dungeon. It's a game for God sake! When I used to travel to Milwaukee back in the day one of the best parts about Gen Con was being able to sit down with total strangers to learn a new game and feel totally welcome in doing so. I love organizing runs with just my friends at Gen Con but if it came down to being able to ghost a ticket because one of my friends couldn't show or letting a stranger play I'd choose the stranger every time. Pending she/he had a CoA of course!! Just kidding!!

Preface: I'm happy to run with random people, and generally get into a few pickup games with people I don't know.

My $0.02:

That random person might be another Raven, Trent, etc... But they could also be from the other end of the spectrum. I understand why some people don't want to take that risk. If you sit down at a tabletop game at GC, and decide you can't stand the people, you can leave and only be out a few dollars. You are out significantly more if you drop out of a TD run.

I think that if any ghosting rules are put in place, they should be designed to disincentive ghosting for the purpose of farming. But ghosting for other reasons (you want to run with people you know, you want to make sure you can run Nightmare, you want to run with fewer people due to space, etc) should not be prevented.

I think the solution I've seen that is simplest is to limit the number of wristbands an individual can wear while still getting full treasure. Set the limit to 3 per person and you effectively make it so that 4 people have to be physically on the run in order to get full treasure. Have some reducing amount for every wristband beyond 3.

MasterED wrote: I have been relatively quiet on the topic of Ghosting. I do have a viewpoint but what I want to say is before taking an action or making a rule...

1. Clearly identify and define the problem
2. Take a measurable action to correct problem
3. Evaluate the action against the problem and status quo
4. Repeat if necessary

I believe we don't know the problem - everyone is just guessing based upon their own personal gaming experience and opinions.

Ed

Well said. You hit the nail on the head.

MasterED wrote: I have been relatively quiet on the topic of Ghosting. I do have a viewpoint but what I want to say is before taking an action or making a rule...

1. Clearly identify and define the problem
2. Take a measurable action to correct problem
3. Evaluate the action against the problem and status quo
4. Repeat if necessary

I believe we don't know the problem - everyone is just guessing based upon their own personal gaming experience and opinions.

Ed

But... but.. my anecdotes!

Rob F wrote: This has been a very interesting thread. Lots of unknowns here though. From the posts i see that people in favor of ghosting generally believe that supply isn't an issue or that without ghosting there would be tickets left unsold. Well, those are all very nice assumptions but we all know that there's really only one way to find out for sure......ban ghosting and see.

I'm not a big fan of ghosting because to me it goes against the very spirit of gamers and Gen Con in general although I can see where in certain scenario's it may have some merit. What concerns me most is that there's always a chance, no matter how small, that the ghosted ticket just boxed out a truly awesome new player from a truly awesome experience. We need more "Raven's" and "Smak's" and "Trent's" and "Ro-gan's" and "Incognito's" coming on board each year!! And I understand that others may not want to run with new players but if it "pisses people off" then I question whether or not they should be playing anyway. If I ran my first run with veteran player's and they were "pissed off" about it just because I happened to get a ticket to their party I'm sure I would be able to tell, and that would most likely be the last time I played the game of True Dungeon. It's a game for God sake! When I used to travel to Milwaukee back in the day one of the best parts about Gen Con was being able to sit down with total strangers to learn a new game and feel totally welcome in doing so. I love organizing runs with just my friends at Gen Con but if it came down to being able to ghost a ticket because one of my friends couldn't show or letting a stranger play I'd choose the stranger every time. Pending she/he had a CoA of course!! Just kidding!!

But Rob, why stop at ghosting? Why not ban all "specialty" runs like the Greedy sealed runs.
In fact if we're optimizing for the new player experience why even let folks do more than 1 run of each dungeon? Clearly that is a space that another player could be going on.


I find it interesting that there is a perspective out there that gencon is the place to play random games with random folks. I've always seen it as a place to play games with friends.

Another derailment, but slightly pertinent, if you were at a restaurant with a significant other and the place starts to fill up, are you in favor of letting random strangers fill into the extra chairs you have at your table?


I personally think we should foster choice. The choice to have the ghosted slot or not. If the group wants to have a more controlled environment why not let them. If they choose to add in strangers that's fine too but it was their choice. A Ban on ghosting removes choice and it forces a situation some players may not like.


Finally i'll conclude with a quote, "Nature finds a way"
Banning ghosting will just make it spring up as Mules, or last second ticket refunds.

valetutto wrote:

Rob F wrote: This has been a very interesting thread. Lots of unknowns here though. From the posts i see that people in favor of ghosting generally believe that supply isn't an issue or that without ghosting there would be tickets left unsold. Well, those are all very nice assumptions but we all know that there's really only one way to find out for sure......ban ghosting and see.

I'm not a big fan of ghosting because to me it goes against the very spirit of gamers and Gen Con in general although I can see where in certain scenario's it may have some merit. What concerns me most is that there's always a chance, no matter how small, that the ghosted ticket just boxed out a truly awesome new player from a truly awesome experience. We need more "Raven's" and "Smak's" and "Trent's" and "Ro-gan's" and "Incognito's" coming on board each year!! And I understand that others may not want to run with new players but if it "pisses people off" then I question whether or not they should be playing anyway. If I ran my first run with veteran player's and they were "pissed off" about it just because I happened to get a ticket to their party I'm sure I would be able to tell, and that would most likely be the last time I played the game of True Dungeon. It's a game for God sake! When I used to travel to Milwaukee back in the day one of the best parts about Gen Con was being able to sit down with total strangers to learn a new game and feel totally welcome in doing so. I love organizing runs with just my friends at Gen Con but if it came down to being able to ghost a ticket because one of my friends couldn't show or letting a stranger play I'd choose the stranger every time. Pending she/he had a CoA of course!! Just kidding!!

But Rob, why stop at ghosting? Why not ban all "specialty" runs like the Greedy sealed runs.
In fact if we're optimizing for the new player experience why even let folks do more than 1 run of each dungeon? Clearly that is a space that another player could be going on.


I find it interesting that there is a perspective out there that gencon is the place to play random games with random folks. I've always seen it as a place to play games with friends.

Another derailment, but slightly pertinent, if you were at a restaurant with a significant other and the place starts to fill up, are you in favor of letting random strangers fill into the extra chairs you have at your table?


I personally think we should foster choice. The choice to have the ghosted slot or not. If the group wants to have a more controlled environment why not let them. If they choose to add in strangers that's fine too but it was their choice. A Ban on ghosting removes choice and it forces a situation some players may not like.


Finally i'll conclude with a quote, "Nature finds a way"
Banning ghosting will just make it spring up as Mules, or last second ticket refunds.

Totally agreed. FYI, I've never ghosted, but I think putting artificial rule-based restrictions on it is futile. Gamers game, and it's just an arms race we are destined to lose.

I don't see ghosts as any worst than mules, or running just for the treasure. All are farming. That doesn't mean they're bad, as long as they don't get out of control. They soak up unsold tickets and maximize TD's revenue. So farming and ghosting are GOOD for TD, so long as they don't get in the way of people wanting to play for fun.

And it isn't fair to prohibit some farming while allowing others. Maybe Wonder Woman could get everyone to reveal their true motives, and allow "good" farming while stopping the "bad," but she's not on staff.

There's only one way, IMO, to limit ALL flavors of farming. That's to stop it from being TOO profitable. I've made one proposal on how to do that. I'm interested in hearing others.

But all the ideas I've heard that rely on banning or rationing will undoubtedly fail, because we gamers are a clever bunch, and we will find a way around every single one. At least, so long as you get an average 33% return on your investment in a ticket.

Let's take TDC as an interesting example. Limits were put on ghosting. The price was so low that there was significant concern expressed about farming. There were only 58 runs. The place was crawling with serious players and collectors

If the Tabletop site numbers are reliable there were 15 runs with unsold slots. 6 of which had 5 or more spots open. 2 had all 10 spots unsold.