TOPIC: Should Ghosting be allowed at GENCON?

Joshua Long wrote:

Cavor wrote: Cut to the chase about difficulty:

On the average normal run, a slide of a 10 is a miss.
On the average nightmare run, a slide of a 10 is a hit.

No, that is incorrect. For nightmare run, a slide of 10 is a hit, for those equipped for epic. There are many times when a 10 does not hit for my party. The Bard has to be singing and the cleric has to had cast prayer for that to be the case sometimes.

I started a post about how Cavor was wrong, but I actually think they are right.

Typical Nightmare monster AC is ~24.

So you need a +14 to hit.

Let's assume you have a +2 weapon and 5th level Bardsong.

In order for a slide of a 10 to be a hit you'd need +10 from other sources.


Goggles of Instant Analysis: +2
Gloves of the brute: +3
5th Level: +1 (for STR based classes)
Shirt of Blessed Strength: +1
Fiendish Charm: +1
Wicked Charm + Girdle of Hill Giant Strength: +2

That gets you to +9, now you need +1 from other sources:

Base STR: +3 Barbarian, +2 Monk, Fighter, +1 Dwarf Fighter
Class Feat: +2 Fighter, Dwarf Fighter

All the other classes can Pouch of Tulz or Pants of Retrieval + Potion Bull's Strength to get there, or Cleric party buffing spells.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Joshua Long wrote:

Cavor wrote: Cut to the chase about difficulty:

On the average normal run, a slide of a 10 is a miss.
On the average nightmare run, a slide of a 10 is a hit.

No, that is incorrect. For nightmare run, a slide of 10 is a hit, for those equipped for epic. There are many times when a 10 does not hit for my party. The Bard has to be singing and the cleric has to had cast prayer for that to be the case sometimes.

I started a post about how Cavor was wrong, but I actually think they are right.

Typical Nightmare monster AC is ~24.

So you need a +14 to hit.

Let's assume you have a +2 weapon and 5th level Bardsong.

In order for a slide of a 10 to be a hit you'd need +10 from other sources.


Goggles of Instant Analysis: +2
Gloves of the brute: +3
5th Level: +1 (for STR based classes)
Shirt of Blessed Strength: +1
Fiendish Charm: +1
Wicked Charm + Girdle of Hill Giant Strength: +2

That gets you to +9, now you need +1 from other sources:

Base STR: +3 Barbarian, +2 Monk, Fighter, +1 Dwarf Fighter
Class Feat: +2 Fighter, Dwarf Fighter

All the other classes can Pouch of Tulz or Pants of Retrieval + Potion Bull's Strength to get there, or Cleric party buffing spells.

The average weapon slid in nightmare is blue. There is no such thing as epic in TD.
(to head off the 10 posts TD != TG)

Cavor wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Joshua Long wrote:

Cavor wrote: Cut to the chase about difficulty:

On the average normal run, a slide of a 10 is a miss.
On the average nightmare run, a slide of a 10 is a hit.

No, that is incorrect. For nightmare run, a slide of 10 is a hit, for those equipped for epic. There are many times when a 10 does not hit for my party. The Bard has to be singing and the cleric has to had cast prayer for that to be the case sometimes.

I started a post about how Cavor was wrong, but I actually think they are right.

Typical Nightmare monster AC is ~24.

So you need a +14 to hit.

Let's assume you have a +2 weapon and 5th level Bardsong.

In order for a slide of a 10 to be a hit you'd need +10 from other sources.


Goggles of Instant Analysis: +2
Gloves of the brute: +3
5th Level: +1 (for STR based classes)
Shirt of Blessed Strength: +1
Fiendish Charm: +1
Wicked Charm + Girdle of Hill Giant Strength: +2

That gets you to +9, now you need +1 from other sources:

Base STR: +3 Barbarian, +2 Monk, Fighter, +1 Dwarf Fighter
Class Feat: +2 Fighter, Dwarf Fighter

All the other classes can Pouch of Tulz or Pants of Retrieval + Potion Bull's Strength to get there, or Cleric party buffing spells.

The average weapon slid in nightmare is blue. There is no such thing as epic in TD.
(to head off the 10 posts TD != TG)

Is that based on data, or just anecdote?

Fiddy wrote:

Cavor wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Joshua Long wrote:

Cavor wrote: Cut to the chase about difficulty:

On the average normal run, a slide of a 10 is a miss.
On the average nightmare run, a slide of a 10 is a hit.

No, that is incorrect. For nightmare run, a slide of 10 is a hit, for those equipped for epic. There are many times when a 10 does not hit for my party. The Bard has to be singing and the cleric has to had cast prayer for that to be the case sometimes.

I started a post about how Cavor was wrong, but I actually think they are right.

Typical Nightmare monster AC is ~24.

So you need a +14 to hit.

Let's assume you have a +2 weapon and 5th level Bardsong.

In order for a slide of a 10 to be a hit you'd need +10 from other sources.


Goggles of Instant Analysis: +2
Gloves of the brute: +3
5th Level: +1 (for STR based classes)
Shirt of Blessed Strength: +1
Fiendish Charm: +1
Wicked Charm + Girdle of Hill Giant Strength: +2

That gets you to +9, now you need +1 from other sources:

Base STR: +3 Barbarian, +2 Monk, Fighter, +1 Dwarf Fighter
Class Feat: +2 Fighter, Dwarf Fighter

All the other classes can Pouch of Tulz or Pants of Retrieval + Potion Bull's Strength to get there, or Cleric party buffing spells.

The average weapon slid in nightmare is blue. There is no such thing as epic in TD.
(to head off the 10 posts TD != TG)

Is that based on data, or just anecdote?

Def. making some assumptions there with how much a nightmare group is equipped...

My party
Barb: 10 to hit
Bard: 9 to hit
Cleric: 4 to hit
Dwarf fighter: 10 to hit
Elf Wizard: 14 to hit
Monk: 7 to hit
Paladin: 7 to hit
Ranger: 14 to hit
Rogue: 8 to hit
Wizard: 3 to hit

Those hits are before bard or cleric buffs. (We never use potions to buff.)

We are successful thanks to teamwork and good sliding.

Fiddy wrote:

Cavor wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Joshua Long wrote:

Cavor wrote: Cut to the chase about difficulty:

On the average normal run, a slide of a 10 is a miss.
On the average nightmare run, a slide of a 10 is a hit.

No, that is incorrect. For nightmare run, a slide of 10 is a hit, for those equipped for epic. There are many times when a 10 does not hit for my party. The Bard has to be singing and the cleric has to had cast prayer for that to be the case sometimes.

I started a post about how Cavor was wrong, but I actually think they are right.

Typical Nightmare monster AC is ~24.

So you need a +14 to hit.

Let's assume you have a +2 weapon and 5th level Bardsong.

In order for a slide of a 10 to be a hit you'd need +10 from other sources.


Goggles of Instant Analysis: +2
Gloves of the brute: +3
5th Level: +1 (for STR based classes)
Shirt of Blessed Strength: +1
Fiendish Charm: +1
Wicked Charm + Girdle of Hill Giant Strength: +2

That gets you to +9, now you need +1 from other sources:

Base STR: +3 Barbarian, +2 Monk, Fighter, +1 Dwarf Fighter
Class Feat: +2 Fighter, Dwarf Fighter

All the other classes can Pouch of Tulz or Pants of Retrieval + Potion Bull's Strength to get there, or Cleric party buffing spells.

The average weapon slid in nightmare is blue. There is no such thing as epic in TD.
(to head off the 10 posts TD != TG)

Is that based on data, or just anecdote?

Just based on what I have observed, wish I could get the party card data. We clearly need a new level of difficulty that challenges geared players.

Cavor wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Cavor wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Joshua Long wrote:

Cavor wrote: Cut to the chase about difficulty:

On the average normal run, a slide of a 10 is a miss.
On the average nightmare run, a slide of a 10 is a hit.

No, that is incorrect. For nightmare run, a slide of 10 is a hit, for those equipped for epic. There are many times when a 10 does not hit for my party. The Bard has to be singing and the cleric has to had cast prayer for that to be the case sometimes.

I started a post about how Cavor was wrong, but I actually think they are right.

Typical Nightmare monster AC is ~24.

So you need a +14 to hit.

Let's assume you have a +2 weapon and 5th level Bardsong.

In order for a slide of a 10 to be a hit you'd need +10 from other sources.


Goggles of Instant Analysis: +2
Gloves of the brute: +3
5th Level: +1 (for STR based classes)
Shirt of Blessed Strength: +1
Fiendish Charm: +1
Wicked Charm + Girdle of Hill Giant Strength: +2

That gets you to +9, now you need +1 from other sources:

Base STR: +3 Barbarian, +2 Monk, Fighter, +1 Dwarf Fighter
Class Feat: +2 Fighter, Dwarf Fighter

All the other classes can Pouch of Tulz or Pants of Retrieval + Potion Bull's Strength to get there, or Cleric party buffing spells.

The average weapon slid in nightmare is blue. There is no such thing as epic in TD.
(to head off the 10 posts TD != TG)

Is that based on data, or just anecdote?

Just based on what I have observed, wish I could get the party card data. We clearly need a new level of difficulty that challenges geared players.

There have been multiple threads about that.

The answer at this time, and likely to stay the answer, is to run True Grind. Incognito takes the time to create Epic difficulty challenges for True Grind.

The amount of change needed to increase Nightmare to something challenging for the 1% of token owners at relic+ level would be incredibly high to modify the entire dungeon. The scaling has been proven to be much more than just another level bump up from Nightmare like NM is from HC.

Epic True Grind is the current spot for Relic+ players to be challenged.

Mike Steele wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Harlax wrote: In all of the recent threads related to URTEs there have been a lot of solutions in search of problems.


Until the problem is defined for us, we are mostly creating complexity without knowing whether it is actually solving a real problem.

This was in Jeff's post on TE Tokens, I think it's a pretty good problem definition:

"We feel these measures are necessary to keep the token distribution in the treasure generators at current levels of value. If we cannot curb the abuse of TEs, then we will be forced to dilute the value of the tokens in the treasure generators. I don't think anyone wants that to happen.

In an effort to reduce fraud and abuse, we will be implementing the following policies with regard to treasure enhancing (TE) tokens:"

Which raises the issue of ghosting not at all.

Unless Jeff also thinks that buying out runs to get Treasure Tokens (up to 181 Treasure Coins per run) is abuse. Only he knows at this point. He could implement a solution like at TDC, come up with some other solution, or maybe he's OK with it at GENCON and won't address it at all.

We buy runs of 10 so that we can 1. Play with a predetermined set of family or Friends. 2. Able to predetermine our Characters (thus pre-built) and difficulty without conflict.

This leads to sometimes having one ghost or two. I'd rather have the ghost and have fun than to have some stranger running with my family that wants to play Normal and take Character X from one of my kids. I liek the flexibility of who is going to be in the run since I bought all ten tickets.

Donald Rients wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Harlax wrote: In all of the recent threads related to URTEs there have been a lot of solutions in search of problems.


Until the problem is defined for us, we are mostly creating complexity without knowing whether it is actually solving a real problem.

This was in Jeff's post on TE Tokens, I think it's a pretty good problem definition:

"We feel these measures are necessary to keep the token distribution in the treasure generators at current levels of value. If we cannot curb the abuse of TEs, then we will be forced to dilute the value of the tokens in the treasure generators. I don't think anyone wants that to happen.

In an effort to reduce fraud and abuse, we will be implementing the following policies with regard to treasure enhancing (TE) tokens:"

Which raises the issue of ghosting not at all.

Unless Jeff also thinks that buying out runs to get Treasure Tokens (up to 181 Treasure Coins per run) is abuse. Only he knows at this point. He could implement a solution like at TDC, come up with some other solution, or maybe he's OK with it at GENCON and won't address it at all.

We buy runs of 10 so that we can 1. Play with a predetermined set of family or Friends. 2. Able to predetermine our Characters (thus pre-built) and difficulty without conflict.

This leads to sometimes having one ghost or two. I'd rather have the ghost and have fun than to have some stranger running with my family that wants to play Normal and take Character X from one of my kids. I liek the flexibility of who is going to be in the run since I bought all ten tickets.

The players I host are a different crew. They only get to relax and enjoy the run if it's a pre-selected group of people who understand the focus of the run is to play and have fun.

My general experience in the TD runs when I was only buying 1-4 tickets in a given run and getting stuck with whatever other group bought out the rest of the tickets was, more often than not, negative. And not slightly so, negative enough that every member of my 4 man crew had expressed a desire to quit TD due to the negativity associated with an event that cost as much as it does. Since we started controlling the whole group that has entirely gone away.

I think in my last 10 hosted runs (100 tickets) we've ended up ghosting 2 spaces. Two members of the group were unable to make a Sunday morning run in time due to exhaustion.

My 12 builds for my group hits for melee and range.

Barbarian +16/+4
Bard +3/+9
Cleric +4/+4
Druid +6/+3
D Figher +14/+5
E Wizard +3/+4
Monk +12/+10
Paladin +12/+5
Ranger +6/+13
Rogue +6/+9
Wizard +3/+3

Barbarian, Paladin and Rogue do not have any relic weapons. The Ranger has the only ranged relic weapon and it is only relic weapon.

So out of 24 possibilities of attack 6 of my character attacks are +10 or greater. And 8 have relic weapons.

I don't know what that means but it is data for someone if they want it. I will admit if I only had to build 10 characters I could make them a bit stronger but I never know what my group wants to play so I have 12.

My Barbarian for example has 2 Legendaries (one being CoA), 3 Relics (RoH,Icecrag, GoFG), 10 UR, 15 Rares and 1 uncommon. I counted rod segment, shirt of Bless Strength as UR.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Typical Nightmare monster AC is ~24.

I agree that sliding 10 can be a typical hit but let's start with solid facts. Numbers from 2016:



Ed

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: There have been multiple threads about that.

The answer at this time, and likely to stay the answer, is to run True Grind. Incognito takes the time to create Epic difficulty challenges for True Grind.

The amount of change needed to increase Nightmare to something challenging for the 1% of token owners at relic+ level would be incredibly high to modify the entire dungeon. The scaling has been proven to be much more than just another level bump up from Nightmare like NM is from HC.

Epic True Grind is the current spot for Relic+ players to be challenged.

I realize we are going very off-topic here, and suggest that if we want to pursue a discussion about Hardcore/Nightmare difficulty levels, we should probably take it to another thread. As Arcanist points out, there have been multiple threads about it in the past. Find one. Or make a new one. Let this one remain about Ghosting.

Having said that - I will add that Joshua Long and Jedibc's numbers are the ones I am most familiar with from years of Coaching. UR level parties which share 10-12 URs through their group are actually pretty common. I won't deny that there's parties who are relic'd up the YingYang... and they may be the ones which you remember most when you DM a combat room... but they're a skewed demographic. Like most of us on the forums

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Donald Rients wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Harlax wrote: In all of the recent threads related to URTEs there have been a lot of solutions in search of problems.


Until the problem is defined for us, we are mostly creating complexity without knowing whether it is actually solving a real problem.

This was in Jeff's post on TE Tokens, I think it's a pretty good problem definition:

"We feel these measures are necessary to keep the token distribution in the treasure generators at current levels of value. If we cannot curb the abuse of TEs, then we will be forced to dilute the value of the tokens in the treasure generators. I don't think anyone wants that to happen.

In an effort to reduce fraud and abuse, we will be implementing the following policies with regard to treasure enhancing (TE) tokens:"

Which raises the issue of ghosting not at all.

Unless Jeff also thinks that buying out runs to get Treasure Tokens (up to 181 Treasure Coins per run) is abuse. Only he knows at this point. He could implement a solution like at TDC, come up with some other solution, or maybe he's OK with it at GENCON and won't address it at all.

We buy runs of 10 so that we can 1. Play with a predetermined set of family or Friends. 2. Able to predetermine our Characters (thus pre-built) and difficulty without conflict.

This leads to sometimes having one ghost or two. I'd rather have the ghost and have fun than to have some stranger running with my family that wants to play Normal and take Character X from one of my kids. I liek the flexibility of who is going to be in the run since I bought all ten tickets.

The players I host are a different crew. They only get to relax and enjoy the run if it's a pre-selected group of people who understand the focus of the run is to play and have fun.

My general experience in the TD runs when I was only buying 1-4 tickets in a given run and getting stuck with whatever other group bought out the rest of the tickets was, more often than not, negative. And not slightly so, negative enough that every member of my 4 man crew had expressed a desire to quit TD due to the negativity associated with an event that cost as much as it does. Since we started controlling the whole group that has entirely gone away.

I think in my last 10 hosted runs (100 tickets) we've ended up ghosting 2 spaces. Two members of the group were unable to make a Sunday morning run in time due to exhaustion.

That sounds like the group I play with. It's a great group of friends, and they are much more focused on having fun than they are about maximizing efficiency. That's why I play us on Hardcore, even though we're probably as well outfitted as many Nightmare groups. It gives everyone the flexibility to relax a bit and have fun during the adventure, and still have a pretty good chance of succeeding.