TOPIC: Dungeon Etiquette and Bad PC Behavior

dsypher wrote:

Eric McGlohon wrote: ...I'm sorry I've stepped into a hornet's nest on a sensitive subject. I'm just trying to be constructive.

No need to apologize and I don't think you have stepped on a hornets nest at all (IMHO); however, i do believe you may have identified the root cause yourself...

...who aren't aware (or don't care) about the other player's experience...

Unfortunately, I don't believe it has anything to do with skill or experience, some people are just dicks and don't (or won't) play nice with others.

So why can't we have some type of statement (in the training room for example) about expected etiquette?

Eric McGlohon wrote:
I have seen a lot of really good ambassadors to the game! I think most experienced players are aware of the fun level of the group. What I'm talking about is the not-so experienced players (mid-level? don't know) who aren't aware (or don't care) about the other player's experience. Unfortunately, those people are out there.


...I'm sorry I've stepped into a hornet's nest on a sensitive subject. I'm just trying to be constructive.

Hornets have their uses and things need to get said and our forums is a good way to communicate.

Seems like ever year there's a post/rant about this or that spoiling dungeon runs or making others miserable. Not to say that it doesn't happen occasionally.

I fall back on part of this due to overall costs and perception. For as expensive as TD is it doesn't take much or relative minor issues to 'ruin' a run or feel let down. Lot easier to shrug off or walk out of a sub $10 event vs the $50+ TD ticket depending on con.

I see some of this in coaching as some well meaning but inconsiderate vets will come in and the token explosion begins. Also the dragging along of/talking a group into hardcore or nightmare. I was admittedly guilty of this at Origins on a run or 2 myself.

I believe anecdotally as both a player and volunteer that these behaviors are magnified at smaller cons where you have far more pickup groups and a larger amount of players who do repeat a fair amount of runs. Issue likely worse in some rooms where once you know the 'trick' it's hard to help without giving away/too much help.

I had a similar experience running through N1 at Origins during one of the volunteer runs. Although in my opinion the puzzles weren't hard, it just feels horrible whenever someone spoils all the puzzles by giving hints. I enjoy running through True Dungeon because of all the puzzles, and it felt wrong not being able to figure out the puzzles ourselves.

After the first puzzle I calmly asked if they could back off and let everyone else solve the puzzle, but that didn't stop them from spoiling the rest of the puzzles.

Despite that, I've been playing True Dungeon for around 10 years now and know it happens all of the time, but nothing can really be done to fix the issue. Again it is the same issue of just a few bad apples, but veterans need to remember that usual attendees run through the dungeon once and want the experience of running through it the first time especially the newbies.

I have only recently started running dungeons multiple times.

The easiest way to avoid any problem is to get all 10 tickets and run with 9 others who have never seen the dungeon.

Given that this isn't realistic for most, it is a potential hazard of playing any game with people you don't know that some of them will be jerks, have BO, or generally make your life unpleasant.

I have found that most people will respond positively to some gentle direction. Nick's experience should truly be the exception.

I also think that, much like other negative vs positive experiences, people post and complain about the ones that were bad at least 5 to 10 times more than the good ones. We seem to enjoy sharing misery.

All that aside, I can say this much. I would happily run with you or any new player on any difficulty. I will generally ask the coach to reduce my stats in that situation, taking 10 off my to hit and damage bonuses, or dropping the tens digit altogether. Or I play a healer.
As Kirk does, I will allow myself to be directed what to do (so, you want me to touch this to that?) and avoid giving suggestions unless specifically asked. It can be tough when 9 people know the answer and you are trying to figure it out yourself too.

Playing rogue and getting them the clues, then flanking in combat seems like a good idea as well. Though generally one of the newer players wants to play the rogue.

To be honest, I have changed how I interract with other players after seeing some concerns posted on different threads here... I no lnger offer full character builds (I have a rare build for each) but a single token usually torso slot. I refuse “tribute” for using my TE’s (but don’t judge others that do... I understand they are heavily invested)... and try to encourage a little role-play when it doesn’t interrupt the game, and even pull my punches to not kill in a single round...

To make it easier in training, I pull out all my TE’s to verify so trainer (other than lvl 6 proof) can spend more time helping out, if needed.

I enjoy doing pick-up runs with unknowns... I enjoy interacting with them.

I am open to suggestions on how to be better...

Eric McGlohon wrote:

dsypher wrote:

Eric McGlohon wrote: ...I'm sorry I've stepped into a hornet's nest on a sensitive subject. I'm just trying to be constructive.

No need to apologize and I don't think you have stepped on a hornets nest at all (IMHO); however, i do believe you may have identified the root cause yourself...

...who aren't aware (or don't care) about the other player's experience...

Unfortunately, I don't believe it has anything to do with skill or experience, some people are just dicks and don't (or won't) play nice with others.

So why can't we have some type of statement (in the training room for example) about expected etiquette?

As a coach I'm very busy and don't always find the time to tell all the players all the various things I should/could tell them to enhance their experience.

As a coach its very easy for me to spot someone over geared for a run but its impossible for me to spot a player who's done the run before, unless they happen to tell me or speak about it I've no way of knowing.

As coaches we should find the time to say these things but we get caught up with our work and figure the next guy will, but he's got the same problem of time.

As folks have said, this use to be a MAJOR problem but we took away treasure stamps so there is no good reason for this to still happen. Honestly I wish we could "out" these people so we could have a chat with them to find out why they are doing it. I know why they might 1shot the boss that is a player with too many tokens getting bored not fighting. What I don't understand is giving away puzzles. Push damage isn't going to kill these folks so why not just take it.

At origins we had a vet group and everyone had done it before except 1 guy. We made him solve the puzzles all on his own. That was a bit evil of us but we gave him a few hints as needed so he didn't get to frustrated.

Maybe if we craft a canned response we can get it out to all the coaches and see if they can add it to their spiel.

Eric McGlohon wrote: So why can't we have some type of statement (in the training room for example) about expected etiquette?

It's not that we can't, I think it's a mater of "why bother?" Allow me to elaborate.

If I'm a boorish asshole, a "don't be a dick" sign in the coaching room isn't going to change that fact--assuming I even read it. Boorish assholes don't generally read instructions, let alone let signs influence them.

Here's my suggested graduated scale of dealing with those folks. If the previous step fails to achieve the desired goal, move to the next step.
Step 1: Give them the benefit of the doubt and politely explain that you'd like to try solving the puzzles without spoilers, have a chance at attacking the monster, or whatever grievance you may have. Be sure to keep it polite. Assume they weren't aware of what they were doing and give them a graceful way out of the situation. Some people are genuinely unaware of their obnoxious behavior and will correct it when it's pointed out.
Step 2: Be more direct. Explain that everyone paid the same amount of money and everyone deserves a chance to shine.
Step 2.5: If you're a cleric or druid, don't heal or buff the asshole(s).
Step 3: Ask the DM to radio for an Adventure Coordinator. It's not an AC's job to resolve inter-party disputes--nor is it in their power to do so--but the fact that you're calling "the authorities" just might scare the dickweed into submission.

As a couch and a DM I have seen very little of this, most of the groups I run with if someone hasn't done a puzzle in the room most of us just sit down and chill and don't care if we take the push damage and maybe one of us will help the person/people if they haven't done the puzzle before.

As a DM I count the biggest damage last on a monster if it is going to be close to let the other players know if they hit and that they had an impact then add some sort of flair to it, even if the damage the one person would have done would have been enough to finish off the monster. Everyone should feel like they are contributing to the fight if they are sliding well or casting.

Hints on puzzles is tricky. There are puzzles where even if you know the solution, it takes 10 minutes to implement the solution. (Trying to avoid N1 spoilers here.) So even if new players figure out the solution after a few minutes, it's too late. Moongate and Dancing, some vets have played many many times by now. There is a balancing act between wanting the party to succeed and letting them figure it out themselves (possibly at the risk of failure). Personally I don't care if I take some push/failure damage, and will gladly stay silent (or give hints) if requested. So yes this topic has come up before, and yes, there's no easy solution. Politely letting your party members know that you don't want any hints is the best you can do in a PUG (pick-up-group). Otherwise prearranged groups is the way to go but those are hard to set up.

Eric McGlohon wrote:

...I'm sorry I've stepped into a hornet's nest on a sensitive subject. .

Not at all. It gets discussed every year. You have the honor of kicking off this year's discussion.

Eric McGlohon wrote:

Harlax wrote: There has been pretty thorough discussion of this topic in the past.

Can you please point me to it?

Here is how you can search for keywords on the forums from yesteryear:

1. Click the "Search" gray tab, or go to:

truedungeon.com/forum/search

For example: ruined puzzle

2. Plug in some keywords in the "Search by Keyword" box, and ensure "Search entire posts" is selected.

3. Now the important part, by default the search only goes back 1 year, under search options set the dropdown from "A year ago" to "Any date".

There are perennial threads for token design and cons, periodically these are deleted. Some discussion may have occurred in the past that got bulk deleted.


Here is a selection of modern threads for "ruined puzzle" in chronological order, I expect if you search for "vets ruined" or "players ruined" or "puzzle spoiled" etc. you'll find more.

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=8&id=219148#219283
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=580&id=228924#228924
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=580&id=228793#228793
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=597&id=244805#281248

Here are some older threads which are hard to read because of a formatting difference that happened in the long ago in the forums.

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=52&id=122318#122325
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=116375&start=24

Hello Eric,

Thanks for speaking up.

I'm not sure I agree with everything, but it's a good topic and a good reminder for TD frequent flyers that they can have an outsize influence on the experience and perception of other players.

Eric McGlohon wrote: One thing I've noticed on these forums, is the lack of discussion of bad behavior from some of the players; Nightmare players on Normal level, -- and especially people who have gone through a puzzle room prior, get impatient and give away the clues to the rest of the party. My son and I have encountered this more than once at the last Origins.

I'd urge you to read some of the reddit posts on the Gencon forums... There's a lot of similar complaints.

I find your testimony that you've encountered these kinds of scenarios multiple times impactfull.

On the other hand I think Reddit / the Gen Con forums or other places are harder to evaluate.

I have no doubt that some number of people have a really bad run in TD due to annoying, insensitive, or obnoxious team mates.

My general feeling though, is that this is no different from any other gaming event. I think most Gen Con repeat attendees have had a game ruined at Gen Con by obnoxious players at one time or another.

It's unfortunate when it happens in True Dungeon, and TD is I believe held to a much higher standard due to its ticket price and reputation as a premiere event, and the fact that it's much harder to leave in the middle if it's going badly.

In short: many more people are going to complain about their ruined TD run with jerks on Reddit than they are about their ruined $2 Pizza Pirates of Zombie Town board game with jerks.

Maybe this discussion has been had before, if so I haven't seen it, but I think it'd be good to have it again.

It has, I posted some links in another thread. If you come back after Gen Con I can all but guarantee you'll see more.

-- Is there a way of having the coach, room GM, or companion remind all of the players to have good etiquette and not ruing the game for the rest of the players?
... If you're bored, and don't want to wait for the other players to figure out the puzzle that may make you happy, but will frustrate everyone else! I assume the puzzle GM can't intervene, but what else could be done?

I'm not sure what more can be done - I suppose some spiel could be added in the coaching room:

"You will need teamwork to survive the dungeon, you must work together. Groups that listen to each other succeed and have fun. If you have knowledge of any spoilers in the dungeon, please keep it to yourself unless the other party members ask you for it."

This could perhaps cut down on a small number of incidents. I suspect it won't be of material impact - I think there are people who really can't help themselves in giving "hints" - I've seen this play out in a negative way myself and it's not pretty.

-- If you have a crazy OP character that can do 60pts of damage in a single hit, maybe stand back and let the others have some fun before you squish the boss at the end??

This one is even tougher, as I think the perception here drives the problem at least as much as the reality.

Barring truly exceptional circumstances (e.g. a $3000+ Ranger or Monk build sliding two hits one of which is a critical, or a similarly costed Wizard build using a once per dungeon nova strike) no nightmare geared player is going to one shot a monster, let alone a boss. A maxed out level 5 Barbarian who is under the rage effect doesn't hit for 60 on a non-critical, or at least not without a lucky token angle.

Generally combat DM's don't announce the damage done by individuals, and the shouldn't be tallying damage before the end of the round.

Heavily geared players can make combat much less fun (e.g. beat the room in 1-2 rounds leaving 5 minutes of standing around time). Unfortunately it's also a lot harder to take your foot off the gas here than you might imagine: you rarely get more than 4 rounds of combat, with new players getting 4 will be a challenge. Even the best players miss, and with new players the odds of a hit puck getting knocked off the table is pretty high. If Mr. Token sits out round one there is a pretty good change they miss in rounds 2 and 3 and never contribute at all.