TOPIC: Please post your questions here

Picc wrote: Im sorry to see this has become an issue, but I fully understand the concern. I suspect (and I want to be clear its only a suspicion, I haven't heard anything official) it might have been brought into focus by the amount of treasure farmed at GHC last year.

It sounds like it steams from suspected violations at Gen Con not GHC to me. There were many unsold tickets at GHC in which runs had to be combined together. Raven, Joshua and I bought 10 tickets minutes before a run was supposed to start and had the run after ours added in because that run only have 1 person. I would guess (just a guess) Jeff would rather sell those tickets and give out treasure for them them have them not go sold, but again just a guess.

I know I was asked by forumite to borrow my 10 CoA's for a run I was not on at GHC. I turned that person down, but still sounded like GC was the problem not GHC.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Picc wrote: Im sorry to see this has become an issue, but I fully understand the concern. I suspect (and I want to be clear its only a suspicion, I haven't heard anything official) it might have been brought into focus by the amount of treasure farmed at GHC last year.

... Well road to hell and all that.

We've been talking about this for a few years. We were focusing so much on GenCon that we didn't consider TD branching out to other, cheaper cons.

Hate to say it, but if the treasure mix at GenCon is built for $50-60 tickets, then it pretty much was to be watered down with a lot more uncommons where the tickets are half that price, and don't allow chips from other cons to be used at GenCon. Unless you want to ration tickets. Or, raise the tickets to GenCon prices. Otherwise, the current loot cap just begs people to farm at GHC.

It's Econ 101.

And, at least two Nuggets to go. It's only going to get worse.

GHC was interesting and lucrative even from a non farmer stand point. Weren't tickets like 26 bucks each? Think i just did runs all day up there. Glad to play at a 'affordable con'. I own my own CoA but no extras, at the end of GHC when i totaled everything for spreadsheet i did more than alright over the cost of the con.

Interesting point and i agree does the treasure at secondary/non premier cons get diluted or what? I can understand the irritation if 'hey guys no urte's allowed at X con". Would having unified con rules help? Ex Gencon/Origins the 'premier events' with current pricing and treasure mix since same story and xp rules. While diluting the mix at 'introductory and redux' runs at smaller/cheaper cons such as TDC and GHC? Might be doable and helps stem the 'farming'.

I think it should be allowed to carry TE for your party, and produce them whenever requested.
I, like others, made purchases and transmuted based on being able to use them for my party members.
If the barter for a cut of the loot is a problem, I would not do it, but I don't see why it should be a problem if negotiated in advance. I don't mind it in the coaching room either, but I know others do.

I interpreted the email as people not "loaning" them out on runs they weren't on.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

I should have been clearer, I was attempting to say: TPTB have not made a request, instruction, or policy regarding the loaning of recently printed URTEs including CoA, AOTF, or ISSN during the (often voluminous) discussion of these tokens while they were being designed or in print.
...
I think a blanket "no loaning URTEs, full stop" policy is a bad policy. (If loaning means allowing any non-owner to equip the token).
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I think a good policy might be: "No loaning URTEs to people not on a run with you." or "No loaning URTEs in exchange for anything of value, and/or to people not on a run with you." might be a good policy.

Back my proposal. Are you saying that selling people a ticket at a discount and lending them tokens in exchange for treasure should be disallowed? What if I rephrased it that I'm lending tokens for free and pre-buying some of the treasure?

All I want is the preservation of my ability to loan my URTEs to the rest of my party free of any exchange.

If the only policy route to that goal means people can't "rent" their URTEs, I'm fine with that, as I think economic transactions in the coaching room lead to a net negative experience for players.

Depending on what is trying to be achieved here by TBTP such a restriction on exchange with regard to URTE loaning might be necessary, to prevent people from getting "mules" to go with them on runs instead of "ghosts" in order to draw more loot.

Matt wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Picc wrote: Im sorry to see this has become an issue, but I fully understand the concern. I suspect (and I want to be clear its only a suspicion, I haven't heard anything official) it might have been brought into focus by the amount of treasure farmed at GHC last year.

... Well road to hell and all that.

We've been talking about this for a few years. We were focusing so much on GenCon that we didn't consider TD branching out to other, cheaper cons.

Hate to say it, but if the treasure mix at GenCon is built for $50-60 tickets, then it pretty much was to be watered down with a lot more uncommons where the tickets are half that price, and don't allow chips from other cons to be used at GenCon. Unless you want to ration tickets. Or, raise the tickets to GenCon prices. Otherwise, the current loot cap just begs people to farm at GHC.

It's Econ 101.

And, at least two Nuggets to go. It's only going to get worse.

GHC was interesting and lucrative even from a non farmer stand point. Weren't tickets like 26 bucks each? Think i just did runs all day up there. Glad to play at a 'affordable con'. I own my own CoA but no extras, at the end of GHC when i totaled everything for spreadsheet i did more than alright over the cost of the con.

Interesting point and i agree does the treasure at secondary/non premier cons get diluted or what? I can understand the irritation if 'hey guys no urte's allowed at X con". Would having unified con rules help? Ex Gencon/Origins the 'premier events' with current pricing and treasure mix since same story and xp rules. While diluting the mix at 'introductory and redux' runs at smaller/cheaper cons such as TDC and GHC? Might be doable and helps stem the 'farming'.

Another thought - satellite cons are relatively new, so I'm guessing relatively few people have invested in a CoA just for GHC. Yet. So, in the future there could be a cap JUST on them. e.g. Since tix are half-price at GHC, players may only get a max of PickANumber extra treasure from TEs.

That discourages farming without banning it, or forcing you to do any of those other icky things like rationing or diluting. And newbies get a deal (cheap ticket) without getting impacted negatively.

And, what is a mule? Is it better to let someone tag along and maybe have fun than to just soak up a ticket for a ghost? And how do you tell a mule from a real player? That's a whole other discussion.

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I, like others, made purchases and transmuted based on being able to use them for my party members.

::shrugs::

Rules and situations change.

Many of us bought/acquired HoP's under Jeff's assurance that they would not be reprinted. And that policy was gradually chipped away year after year.

Many of us bought tokens based on being able to swap equipment (other than weapons) in the dungeon. But that was changed.

Many of us transmuted items based on the assumption that they wouldn't be given away like candy that same year (which also drastically lowered their value).

Many of us bought tokens before the creation of the healing/damage pool concept significantly weakened many tokens.

Brad Mortensen wrote: Another thought - satellite cons are relatively new, so I'm guessing relatively few people have invested in a CoA just for GHC. Yet. So, in the future there could be a cap JUST on them. e.g. Since tix are half-price at GHC, players may only get a max of PickANumber extra treasure from TEs.

Actually, the situation becomes much worse with satellite cons.

With GenCon, if someone loans treasure enhancers, there is an opportunity cost since that person (at GenCon) won't be able to use it at the same time.

With more and more satellite cons, a good portion of people won't be going there and won't be able to use their treasure enhancers anyway. So if they loan them (to someone they trust), someone else can go to Origins, GHC, TDC with the actual treasure enhancers.

Think of cases where a group shares their tokens (say like Donald Rient's / Gertz's group, since they share an Artifact). If they have a group of 10 CoA's, all it takes is a single one of them to attend Origins, GHC, or TDC and they can bring along all their 10 CoA's and use them. For a single person to attend all of those, that's a big time commitment. If you have a group of 10 friends/family, all you need is one person to attend each of those satellite cons.

Incognito wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I, like others, made purchases and transmuted based on being able to use them for my party members.

::shrugs::

Rules and situations change.

Many of us bought/acquired HoP's under Jeff's assurance that they would not be reprinted. And that policy was gradually chipped away year after year.

Many of us bought tokens based on being able to swap equipment (other than weapons) in the dungeon. But that was changed.

Many of us transmuted items based on the assumption that they wouldn't be given away like candy that same year (which also drastically lowered their value).

Many of us bought tokens before the creation of the healing/damage pool concept significantly weakened many tokens.

And you and others likely voiced concern. Matt, Brad and I are voicing concern. Of course Jeff can choose to do with that concern as he sees fit, but I don't understand your stance against our concern.

Incognito wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Another thought - satellite cons are relatively new, so I'm guessing relatively few people have invested in a CoA just for GHC. Yet. So, in the future there could be a cap JUST on them. e.g. Since tix are half-price at GHC, players may only get a max of PickANumber extra treasure from TEs.

Actually, the situation becomes much worse with satellite cons.

With GenCon, if someone loans treasure enhancers, there is an opportunity cost since that person (at GenCon) won't be able to use it at the same time.

With more and more satellite cons, a good portion of people won't be going there and won't be able to use their treasure enhancers anyway. So if they loan them (to someone they trust), someone else can go to Origins, GHC, TDC with the actual treasure enhancers.

Think of cases where a group shares their tokens (say like Donald Rient's / Gertz's group, since they share an Artifact). If they have a group of 10 CoA's, all it takes is a single one of them to attend Origins, GHC, or TDC and they can bring along all their 10 CoA's and use them. For a single person to attend all of those, that's a big time commitment. If you have a group of 10 friends/family, all you need is one person to attend each of those satellite cons.

And now it sounds like you're describing "borrowing tokens from outside of your party," actually outside of your entire convention, which everyone seems to agree is a Bad Thing^TM

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Incognito wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Another thought - satellite cons are relatively new, so I'm guessing relatively few people have invested in a CoA just for GHC. Yet. So, in the future there could be a cap JUST on them. e.g. Since tix are half-price at GHC, players may only get a max of PickANumber extra treasure from TEs.

Actually, the situation becomes much worse with satellite cons.

With GenCon, if someone loans treasure enhancers, there is an opportunity cost since that person (at GenCon) won't be able to use it at the same time.

With more and more satellite cons, a good portion of people won't be going there and won't be able to use their treasure enhancers anyway. So if they loan them (to someone they trust), someone else can go to Origins, GHC, TDC with the actual treasure enhancers.

Think of cases where a group shares their tokens (say like Donald Rient's / Gertz's group, since they share an Artifact). If they have a group of 10 CoA's, all it takes is a single one of them to attend Origins, GHC, or TDC and they can bring along all their 10 CoA's and use them. For a single person to attend all of those, that's a big time commitment. If you have a group of 10 friends/family, all you need is one person to attend each of those satellite cons.

And now it sounds like you're describing "borrowing tokens from outside of your party," actually outside of your entire convention, which everyone seems to agree is a Bad Thing^TM

Apparently, not everyone.

Some people seem to think this is okay, especially since this would still fall under the auspices of "carry the treasure enhancers through the whole dungeon."

Some people also seem to think that token rentals are okay (though in previous threads most people seem to be against that).

Incognito wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Incognito wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Another thought - satellite cons are relatively new, so I'm guessing relatively few people have invested in a CoA just for GHC. Yet. So, in the future there could be a cap JUST on them. e.g. Since tix are half-price at GHC, players may only get a max of PickANumber extra treasure from TEs.

Actually, the situation becomes much worse with satellite cons.

With GenCon, if someone loans treasure enhancers, there is an opportunity cost since that person (at GenCon) won't be able to use it at the same time.

With more and more satellite cons, a good portion of people won't be going there and won't be able to use their treasure enhancers anyway. So if they loan them (to someone they trust), someone else can go to Origins, GHC, TDC with the actual treasure enhancers.

Think of cases where a group shares their tokens (say like Donald Rient's / Gertz's group, since they share an Artifact). If they have a group of 10 CoA's, all it takes is a single one of them to attend Origins, GHC, or TDC and they can bring along all their 10 CoA's and use them. For a single person to attend all of those, that's a big time commitment. If you have a group of 10 friends/family, all you need is one person to attend each of those satellite cons.

And now it sounds like you're describing "borrowing tokens from outside of your party," actually outside of your entire convention, which everyone seems to agree is a Bad Thing^TM

Apparently, not everyone.

Some people seem to think this is okay, especially since this would still fall under the auspices of "carry the treasure enhancers through the whole dungeon."

Some people also seem to think that token rentals are okay (though in previous threads most people seem to be against that).

I brought up token rental 5 years ago, but would add that I would not advocate the practice.

Tokens in possession of the group, show at end. We've done that in the past it would slow things down but we could go to it again to fix the problem of TEs if there is a problem. I do mean in group so the 1 guy with the back pack that has all the tokens can pull it out and show it all in 1 go to speed things up and be done.

As a coach I like seeing all the TEs at once so I know there are actually 10 and not people passing them around when i'm not looking.

Seems like Jeff wants to try this again.

I think he's shooting for 10 CoAs to be 10 CoAs not 10 CoAs for every group. Just my thoughts.
Polite way of saying don't abuse sharing these things. There's a difference between wanting the full synergy bonus for your group and handing off 10 tokens to run through for a group you're not on or apart of.
I don't think he's trying to make me identify specifically which tokens are mine and which tokens are my wife's.
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their her's if you had to ask. I just get the honor of lugging them around and explaining what they all do.