TOPIC: Let's make sure we are always nice to newbies

I agree. Treasure is a touchy subject because people know the tokens are worth something, and it can raise suspicion - or hackles - if it's handled the wrong way.

I like the offer of, "I can lend you this token, and would appreciate if you share the bonus treasure with me but you don't have to!" because it gives the new player control over the situation.

Alternatively, one of the offers I've made in the past is: "If you pull any treasure which you don't need or won't use, like Monster Trophies, I'd appreciate the opportunity to trade you for those items." Sometimes the new player will just give them to me outright as a thank you for the use of the TE. Other times, I've traded for +1 weapons or rare armor, which are more valuable to them than they are to me... though I make sure they know a monster trophy could get them more in trade if they chose to find one of the token dealers instead. But usually, if they got the bonus treasure thanks to the generous loan of a TE, they're happy to make the trade.

As long as they don't feel like you're trying to pull something sneaky on them, or use high-pressure sales tactics, most new players appreciate the chance to get some bonus treasure.

I'm really unsure about "puzzle etiquette" for puzzles you know the answer to.

I've had really negative experiences with players who at the beginning say: "I know the solution, but I won't spoil it." and then proceed to "drop hints" which frequently only make sense in retrospect: "Focus on the wingbat, what is different about this wingbat?" and serve to make the person they are trying to hint feel dumb.

I was even on a run at TDC where the players who weren't on their first run said: "We haven't solved the puzzle in the steam vent room yet." and when we got there deputized the new players to assemble the pyramid while they worked on the part they hadn't figured out.

They literally split the party and said: you, you, you - put together the pyramid to the people who were in the room for the first time Then after the room was solved one of them had the gall to stand aside and tell the people who put the pyramid together that they needed to take it apart (they didn't help.)

Hooray teamwork!

On the other hand - I can see that loafing around and not participating wouldn't be taken well.


Anyway - I've sort of adopted the approach of being a helpful oaf in puzzle rooms I know about:

1. Stand to the side, don't block props.

2. Maybe say: How can I help? or What should I do? if it's a puzzle where multiple people need to manipulate things.

So - play dumb basically.


I've come to the conclusion it's not even good to draw attention to the relevant bits, or say "guys I think we're off track."


I also agree that _telling_ people you know the answer is just no helpful. Don't do it.

Besides! What if the answer changed since yesterday!

You would look like the world's biggest doofus!

Raven wrote: Other times, I've traded for +1 weapons or rare armor, which are more valuable to them than they are to me... though I make sure they know a monster trophy could get them more in trade if they chose to find one of the token dealers instead. But usually, if they got the bonus treasure thanks to the generous loan of a TE, they're happy to make the trade.

I have pretty much unlimited respect for you and the contributions you make to the game, but I wonder about this.

I mean - a random +1 weapon or armor is worth maybe $1.75.

A monster trophy is worth $5-8.


To trade fairly I always want to ensure the person I'm trading with has the same information I do, and also think of how the transaction would seem to them after the fact if they learned what I know.


How would a new player feel when they find out they traded away their Jawbone of an Ass for a +1 Vorpal Sword when they see Jawbone on a web store or eBay for $7 and +1 Vorpal for $2?

Will they think: That player sure was great trading me something I could use in my build!

Or will they think: Wow - buyer beware with those folks I guess - I got ripped off!



I get that new players have no use for monster bits. They probably do have use for a $5 dollar bill.


To be fair to Raven here - I have witnessed her explaining the relative value of these things in trades to a friend of mine - who didn't care, and wanted to trade away his... Mindflayer Ooze? for her... Ring of Protection +1 maybe? Anyway - she explained the value and that was fine with him, he made the trade anyway.

It would be several years (till 2013 I think) before anyone in our party cared about monster bits .

MasterED wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: Oh, and that brings up something I meant to mention in my first post but neglected to, and that is the greed factor. If you have newbies in the group please don't screw them on treasure or tokens. If they find a UR in their 10-pack makes sure they know it is worth "$75-$100". Don't work out sleazy deals when loaning your treasure enhancers. Don't try to scam them of their treasure draws. I know this has all happened.

On the other hand, those of us who have a bunch of CoAs or CoGFs want that synergy bonus, so we are incentivized to loan out treasure tokens. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for a kickback. I'm thinking something along the lines of "Hey, I have this token that you can virtually borrow if you want. It gives you 13 extra treasure draws on top of your normal three. If you want to give me six of them it would be appreciated but it is totally up to you."

Or is that even going too far?

I agree don't screw the new players because of their lack of knowledge on pricing of tokens. For splitting treasure it is all about the approach - don't pressure them and be fair (split it it with them). If you loan them a CoA and they now get 16 treasure instead of 3 - 8 a piece is an easy split. If anyone isn't interested then take no politely and still treat them with respect and enjoy the game.

Ed

8 each may be an "easy split" - but I don't like it.

Here is what is happening:

Newbie doesn't take the offer:

Vet gets: 15 (3+CoA with 9 player synergy)
Newbie gets: 3
Total treasure: 18

Newbie takes the offer:
Vet gets: 24
Newbie gets: 8
Total treasure: 32


The newbie has given up a charm slot on their character in order to generate +14 treasure in total, of which the helpful vet keeps 9 (almost 66%).

Who among the veterans would like to give up a charm slot so that they can get 1/3rd of treasure generated while another player gets 2/3rds?

My take on treasure has been if you or I work out a deal ahead of time cool. I don't like deals in the coaching room. Earlier interaction with your party shouldn't be to barter, imo. If on am on a pug run and you want to use my CoA and ISSN cool, if not cool. I am not on the run to make treasure off someone. I have benefited from the generosity of the TD community previously so I like to play it foward good karma and whatnot. That is me. You play your way. If I am on a run with you though don't bother trying to barter in the coaches room though because I will undercut you be loaning for zero treasure. Ha I may have made the number of folks that will run with me go down.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: Oh, and that brings up something I meant to mention in my first post but neglected to, and that is the greed factor. If you have newbies in the group please don't screw them on treasure or tokens. If they find a UR in their 10-pack makes sure they know it is worth "$75-$100". Don't work out sleazy deals when loaning your treasure enhancers. Don't try to scam them of their treasure draws. I know this has all happened.

On the other hand, those of us who have a bunch of CoAs or CoGFs want that synergy bonus, so we are incentivized to loan out treasure tokens. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for a kickback. I'm thinking something along the lines of "Hey, I have this token that you can virtually borrow if you want. It gives you 13 extra treasure draws on top of your normal three. If you want to give me six of them it would be appreciated but it is totally up to you."

Or is that even going too far?

I agree don't screw the new players because of their lack of knowledge on pricing of tokens. For splitting treasure it is all about the approach - don't pressure them and be fair (split it it with them). If you loan them a CoA and they now get 16 treasure instead of 3 - 8 a piece is an easy split. If anyone isn't interested then take no politely and still treat them with respect and enjoy the game.

Ed

8 each may be an "easy split" - but I don't like it.

Here is what is happening:

Newbie doesn't take the offer:

Vet gets: 15 (3+CoA with 9 player synergy)
Newbie gets: 3
Total treasure: 18

Newbie takes the offer:
Vet gets: 24
Newbie gets: 8
Total treasure: 32


The newbie has given up a charm slot on their character in order to generate +14 treasure in total, of which the helpful vet keeps 9 (almost 66%).

Who among the veterans would like to give up a charm slot so that they can get 1/3rd of treasure generated while another player gets 2/3rds?

Most new players can't even fill all three charm slots and if they could would they give up a charm slot for 5 treasure - Almost all will,I am sure you would too. But if they aren't interested - a no is a no.

Ed

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm really unsure about "puzzle etiquette" for puzzles you know the answer to.

I've had really negative experiences with players who at the beginning say: "I know the solution, but I won't spoil it." and then proceed to "drop hints" which frequently only make sense in retrospect: "Focus on the wingbat, what is different about this wingbat?" and serve to make the person they are trying to hint feel dumb.

I was even on a run at TDC where the players who weren't on their first run said: "We haven't solved the puzzle in the steam vent room yet." and when we got there deputized the new players to assemble the pyramid while they worked on the part they hadn't figured out.

They literally split the party and said: you, you, you - put together the pyramid to the people who were in the room for the first time Then after the room was solved one of them had the gall to stand aside and tell the people who put the pyramid together that they needed to take it apart (they didn't help.)

Hooray teamwork!

On the other hand - I can see that loafing around and not participating wouldn't be taken well.


Anyway - I've sort of adopted the approach of being a helpful oaf in puzzle rooms I know about:

1. Stand to the side, don't block props.

2. Maybe say: How can I help? or What should I do? if it's a puzzle where multiple people need to manipulate things.

So - play dumb basically.


I've come to the conclusion it's not even good to draw attention to the relevant bits, or say "guys I think we're off track."


I also agree that _telling_ people you know the answer is just no helpful. Don't do it.

Besides! What if the answer changed since yesterday!

You would look like the world's biggest doofus!

This is great advice and the approach I've started to adopt. My wife asked me once what happened in the puzzle rooms after I've already played once. Told her most of the time I just play dumb so as not to ruin the experience for others. She said that chacter class fits me the best. I still don't know what she meant by that?

Kirk Bauer wrote: Oh, and that brings up something I meant to mention in my first post but neglected to, and that is the greed factor. If you have newbies in the group please don't screw them on treasure or tokens. If they find a UR in their 10-pack makes sure they know it is worth "$75-$100". Don't work out sleazy deals when loaning your treasure enhancers. Don't try to scam them of their treasure draws. I know this has all happened

This.

On my second-ever run of TD in 2013 I pulled a Charm of Heroism out of my three treasure pulls. I had zero clue how valuable it was. One of the veteran players I was with as we were walking out tried to convince me it was "only worth about $5 because nearly everyone had one, but I'll give you $10 for it." Luckily I had noticed the different colored text on it so I knew it was more special that the tokens I had seen so far and passed on selling it.

I've never seen that person again. Which brings me to my next point. We have a great community here, but there is a contingent of veteran players out there who don't frequent the forums at all. People who have no ties to the community, who give zero ducks about newbies having a good time or not screwing them over. These are the people we need to watch out for. People with Hardcore to Nightmare level builds that you've never seen before. Some are just brand new enthusiasts like Trent who didn't have ties to the community yet. Some are veterans who don't use the forums but are decent folk anyway. Then there are duckheads like the guy who tried to rip me off.

It was said before - if you see something, say something.

If I'm dealing with a newbie, I like to grab a random vet whom I respect and ask them for advice on the newbie's behalf. This happened to at TDC:

Not-Quite-Newbie: I need a RoH
Me: I have one
Newbie: what do you want for it?
Me: Joe (not real name, who was walking by), what's a RoH going for now? (Like I don't know)
Joe (looks a little confused): 150? 175?
Me: thanks

And a deal was struck.

If someone tries to make a deal with you, don't be afraid to ask for another opinion. If the other person wants to keep things secret, they're probably trying to screw you over.

And I agree, if you see someone about to get scammed, step in.

Josh: what's this?
Dirt bag: junk, I'll give you $10
You: I'd give you $300, even though it's probably worth $500 on Ebay (or whatever)
Josh: I'll keep it
DB (sprints for the exit): curses!

Personally I have stopped loaning tokens to strangers. Too many bad experiences. I feel my intentions were always in the right place but it never seemed to work out. Now the only offer my party makes is for Rings of Heroism. I (with the help of some of my friends) have enough for all 10 slots and most coaches are OK with us keeping possession of the rings.

I used to loan all kinds of tokens. All I ever asked was for the tokens to be returned to me at the end of the run. All to often I had to remind them to return tokens and/or received not so much as a thank you!. The straw that broke my back was a group of three people to whom I loaned tokens. When I asked for my tokens back they looked at me funny and then walked away. I asked them repeatedly and they refused to acknowledge me in any way. Lost a Defenders set and 3 rare weapons that run. Not the end of the world, but seriously ridiculous.

Now to be fair several experiences were good but the bad ones created too much risk. Now I make no offer to loan tokens.

If I find myself with newbies on the group I usually give the following speech:

"Hey guys. you all seem new to TD. I (And my friends if present) am a Veteran player and very familiar with the classes, tokens and how TD works. If you have any questions I would be happy to help. Just a few tips up front. Time is of the essence in each room. So work together. If it is a combat room the best thing we can do is be organized with our sliding. When we get to the training room, the coach there will likely cover it. If it is a puzzle room I encourage everyone to think out load as much as possible. Most puzzles are solved by ones persons idea sparking an idea for someone else. When you guys are ready I would love to have a conversation about what difficulty we would like to run at."

When having the conversation about difficulty it goes something like this:
"Me and my friends are equipped for Nightmare and have succeeded at that level. Since you guys are new I am not sure trying Nightmare would be fun for you. However I think we can be successful and have fun on Hardcore. It will be challenging but I am sure that together we can succeed. We have copious amounts of healing and are willing to share. We also have plenty of ways to raise dead and are willing to use them. So that's our sales pitch. But Dungeon difficulty must be unanimous and we don't want anyone to feel pressured, so if you are unsure feel free to vote as you choose. We will accept any decision made and want everyone to have fun."

These approaches have been very successful. And seem to lead to more good newbie experiences than offering to loan tokens. We also have created some personalities for our Characters and typically we launch into some RP banter.

If anyone is curious the banter goes something like this: The Wizard was hired us to protect him but has failed to ever produce payment. He claims he it keeping the gold safe for us. The Paladin is worried the Wizard is going to screw over the newbies, but feels forced to go anyway because slaying evil monsters is the greater good. The Bard has apparently been stealing our wages from the Wizard and offers the newbies a cut if they help him out without telling the Paladin. All the while our Barbarian is trying to figure out what we are talking about and simply wants more grog and to smash things.

We have developed quite the routine and typically amuse ourselves and hopefully others.

jedibcg wrote: If I am on a run with you though don't bother trying to barter in the coaches room though because I will undercut you be loaning for zero treasure. Ha I may have made the number of folks that will run with me go down.

*smirk* ... that is definitely one way to undermine the TE renters


Also, Davoruk; That sounds like a fun bit of banter. Wouldn't mind if fate had us on a run together some time : )

Couple of thoughts/observations,

Regardless of intent we are a inherently relative small portion of the greater playerbase so we tend to group think more than not (certain debates aside...)

Renting of treasure tokens just strikes me as a incident waiting to blow up one of these days in coaching/epilogue rooms. As a coaching volunteer i get leery of one of these days a he said/she said scenario breaking out over a misunderstanding of the 'deal. That said i was recipient on occasion of generosity year 1 of CoA before i finished mine. I guess the only exclusion i could see is if preplanned 'newbie' runs where tickets are free or half cost knowing the that host is getting the extra treasure. I see the value of keeping those valid or see them permanently go away.

Loaning of tokens, i agree with better to not just dump tokens on players. Generally i like to make sure if possible that in a pug everyone has a red weapon/armor if they're agreeable to be borrowing. I've also lost a few over the years due to 'forget to return' or my inattention. The only exception i have to that is especially in a party that's behind i've loaned a complete build to a late walk in. Usually more for the fact that i have a prefilled card/app for the coach then to dump tokens on a new person. I tell the other player take the weapons out and ignore the rest.

Lastly we're all human and going to have good days and bad. I've had days where i'm barely functioning and admittedly not the most social and will tend to stand aside or just where the party directs. Sucks when it happens during con but part of random circumstance.