TOPIC: No definitive BIS token

I like this idea, but I think ultimately it will hinge on mechanical changes in the dungeon making other builds viable, not token design.

Tokens (basically) only matter in combat. So you're looking at using tokens for the ~12 rounds of combat you'll get per dungeon.

The revealed preference of what players what out of tokens is generally to deal lots of damage - which makes perfect sense given the above.

You can design other token build paths out to wazoo, but if those paths don't deal the same amount of damage then players generally won't be interested.

For the players who will be interested, they can already do that today. If you want to build a retribution based low AC paladin or taunting drawf fighter nothing is stopping you - and some people do that - more power too them!


To see truly different build paths I think you'd need to see one of these two things:

A. A games workshop style treadmill (hey - has anyone seen Steve recently? I miss him) where TD rotates over every few years what the most powerful mechanic is. E.g. really push wands for 2 years, then really push scrolls for 2 years, then really push ranged for 2 years, etc.. This is annoying, exhausts most players, and leads to rapid power creep.

B. Add a different thing _in the game_ that people want to do as badly as they want to kill monsters, and add tokens to support it. For example, you could add branching paths where the party can split and those who want combat go left, and those who want a sneak/diplomacy interaction go right - then you can make tokens that support sneak/diplomacy and you'll see variation in build.



I do like the trend we've been seeing recently to try to goose ranged up to similar power level to Melee - at the very least "ranged, melee, or spell" should be choices, where today really only "melee or spell" (or Bard or Healer) are choices (I know, I know, ranged ranger - more power too you - that's the exception that proves the rule).

Matthew Hayward wrote: I like this idea, but I think ultimately it will hinge on mechanical changes in the dungeon making other builds viable, not token design.

Tokens (basically) only matter in combat. So you're looking at using tokens for the ~12 rounds of combat you'll get per dungeon.

The revealed preference of what players what out of tokens is generally to deal lots of damage - which makes perfect sense given the above.

You can design other token build paths out to wazoo, but if those paths don't deal the same amount of damage then players generally won't be interested.

For the players who will be interested, they can already do that today. If you want to build a retribution based low AC paladin or taunting drawf fighter nothing is stopping you - and some people do that - more power too them!


To see truly different build paths I think you'd need to see one of these two things:

A. A games workshop style treadmill (hey - has anyone seen Steve recently? I miss him) where TD rotates over every few years what the most powerful mechanic is. E.g. really push wands for 2 years, then really push scrolls for 2 years, then really push ranged for 2 years, etc.. This is annoying, exhausts most players, and leads to rapid power creep.

B. Add a different thing _in the game_ that people want to do as badly as they want to kill monsters, and add tokens to support it. For example, you could add branching paths where the party can split and those who want combat go left, and those who want a sneak/diplomacy interaction go right - then you can make tokens that support sneak/diplomacy and you'll see variation in build.



I do like the trend we've been seeing recently to try to goose ranged up to similar power level to Melee - at the very least "ranged, melee, or spell" should be choices, where today really only "melee or spell" (or Bard or Healer) are choices (I know, I know, ranged ranger - more power too you - that's the exception that proves the rule).

The thing that would keep things fresh would be a sort of "Magic the Gathering Standard" approach, where tokens rotated out of use after a couple of years. But, Jeff floated an idea like that once and there was a near riot, for obvious reasons. That's the real problem True Dungeon has to deal with - nothing ever rotates out. So, in order to keep spurring sales, new tokens have to keep obsoleting old tokens. And, like Matthew said, the one key element is dealing damage to the monsters, so tokens that do more of that will be more highly prized and will usually be "best in slot".

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I like this idea, but I think ultimately it will hinge on mechanical changes in the dungeon making other builds viable, not token design.

Tokens (basically) only matter in combat. So you're looking at using tokens for the ~12 rounds of combat you'll get per dungeon.

The revealed preference of what players what out of tokens is generally to deal lots of damage - which makes perfect sense given the above.

You can design other token build paths out to wazoo, but if those paths don't deal the same amount of damage then players generally won't be interested.

For the players who will be interested, they can already do that today. If you want to build a retribution based low AC paladin or taunting drawf fighter nothing is stopping you - and some people do that - more power too them!


To see truly different build paths I think you'd need to see one of these two things:

A. A games workshop style treadmill (hey - has anyone seen Steve recently? I miss him) where TD rotates over every few years what the most powerful mechanic is. E.g. really push wands for 2 years, then really push scrolls for 2 years, then really push ranged for 2 years, etc.. This is annoying, exhausts most players, and leads to rapid power creep.

B. Add a different thing _in the game_ that people want to do as badly as they want to kill monsters, and add tokens to support it. For example, you could add branching paths where the party can split and those who want combat go left, and those who want a sneak/diplomacy interaction go right - then you can make tokens that support sneak/diplomacy and you'll see variation in build.



I do like the trend we've been seeing recently to try to goose ranged up to similar power level to Melee - at the very least "ranged, melee, or spell" should be choices, where today really only "melee or spell" (or Bard or Healer) are choices (I know, I know, ranged ranger - more power too you - that's the exception that proves the rule).

The thing that would keep things fresh would be a sort of "Magic the Gathering Standard" approach, where tokens rotated out of use after a couple of years. But, Jeff floated an idea like that once and there was a near riot, for obvious reasons. That's the real problem True Dungeon has to deal with - nothing ever rotates out. So, in order to keep spurring sales, new tokens have to keep obsoleting old tokens. And, like Matthew said, the one key element is dealing damage to the monsters, so tokens that do more of that will be more highly prized and will usually be "best in slot".

That's a great idea (I mean... barring the riots).



Certainly you could follow the magic analogy further:

1. If you want, you can play "Epic TD" - in which all tokens are allowed.

2. But also, the party can opt into "Arc TD" - where only tokens from the current arc (or older versions of reprinted tokens).

There are two XP tracks, one for Epic and one for Arc.

Maybe Arc has different treasure (e.g. 6 or 9 baseline to account for lack of legal TEs). Maybe Arc completion tokens are worth 10,000 GP in the TD Auctions.


Obviously a lot to be hammered out here. But if you could make this appealing to players it would absolutely create a lot of build variety (at least among those who chose to play Arc).

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I like this idea, but I think ultimately it will hinge on mechanical changes in the dungeon making other builds viable, not token design.

Tokens (basically) only matter in combat. So you're looking at using tokens for the ~12 rounds of combat you'll get per dungeon.

The revealed preference of what players what out of tokens is generally to deal lots of damage - which makes perfect sense given the above.

You can design other token build paths out to wazoo, but if those paths don't deal the same amount of damage then players generally won't be interested.

For the players who will be interested, they can already do that today. If you want to build a retribution based low AC paladin or taunting drawf fighter nothing is stopping you - and some people do that - more power too them!


To see truly different build paths I think you'd need to see one of these two things:

A. A games workshop style treadmill (hey - has anyone seen Steve recently? I miss him) where TD rotates over every few years what the most powerful mechanic is. E.g. really push wands for 2 years, then really push scrolls for 2 years, then really push ranged for 2 years, etc.. This is annoying, exhausts most players, and leads to rapid power creep.

B. Add a different thing _in the game_ that people want to do as badly as they want to kill monsters, and add tokens to support it. For example, you could add branching paths where the party can split and those who want combat go left, and those who want a sneak/diplomacy interaction go right - then you can make tokens that support sneak/diplomacy and you'll see variation in build.



I do like the trend we've been seeing recently to try to goose ranged up to similar power level to Melee - at the very least "ranged, melee, or spell" should be choices, where today really only "melee or spell" (or Bard or Healer) are choices (I know, I know, ranged ranger - more power too you - that's the exception that proves the rule).

The thing that would keep things fresh would be a sort of "Magic the Gathering Standard" approach, where tokens rotated out of use after a couple of years. But, Jeff floated an idea like that once and there was a near riot, for obvious reasons. That's the real problem True Dungeon has to deal with - nothing ever rotates out. So, in order to keep spurring sales, new tokens have to keep obsoleting old tokens. And, like Matthew said, the one key element is dealing damage to the monsters, so tokens that do more of that will be more highly prized and will usually be "best in slot".

That's a great idea (I mean... barring the riots).



Certainly you could follow the magic analogy further:

1. If you want, you can play "Epic TD" - in which all tokens are allowed.

2. But also, the party can opt into "Arc TD" - where only tokens from the current arc (or older versions of reprinted tokens).

There are two XP tracks, one for Epic and one for Arc.

Maybe Arc has different treasure (e.g. 6 or 9 baseline to account for lack of legal TEs). Maybe Arc completion tokens are worth 10,000 GP in the TD Auctions.


Obviously a lot to be hammered out here. But if you could make this appealing to players it would absolutely create a lot of build variety (at least among those who chose to play Arc).

Matthew, I was thinking of something very similar, a bit more streamlined.

What if Jeff added a rule along the lines of "if you're only using tokens printed in the last two years, you get +6 Treasure Coins on the run"? I think something like that might really work.

I think there would have to be an exception that all TE tokens can be used, regardless of the year.

Mike Steele wrote: Matthew, I was thinking of something very similar, a bit more streamlined.

What if Jeff added a rule along the lines of "if you're only using tokens printed in the last two years, you get +6 Treasure Coins on the run"? I think something like that might really work.

I think there would have to be an exception that all TE tokens can be used, regardless of the year.

Yup - something that elegant would probably work.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Matthew, I was thinking of something very similar, a bit more streamlined.

What if Jeff added a rule along the lines of "if you're only using tokens printed in the last two years, you get +6 Treasure Coins on the run"? I think something like that might really work.

I think there would have to be an exception that all TE tokens can be used, regardless of the year.

Yup - something that elegant would probably work.

There might be a couple of unintended consequences.

1) Maybe some people would actually reduce their token purchases. Why spend a bunch of money to get resources to get Legendary tokens if you're not going to use them. But, maybe those people would still get BIS builds, and do a mix of Epic and Standard runs.

2) A large percentage of players are probably already playing "standard' since they might not own tokens older than that. On the plus side that would help balance the token pulls between new players and more established ones. On the negative side, that might require a lot more investment by True Dungeon to stock the treasure boxes.

I think it's an idea worth thinking about. And, if were implemented and had any negative impacts, it could be modified or cancelled the next year.

Mike Steele wrote: There might be a couple of unintended consequences.

Yep I no longer play anything but Normal with my TE. Same fun but more treasure.

Ed

Matt Goodman wrote: This may be an unpopular opinion, but I would like token development to create many "good" options. In my casual searching, there are current best-in-slot (BIS) items for each of the classes. This makes all the top-tiered of that class play exactly the same. I think it would be really interesting to see other tokens that challenge the BIS, forcing the players to make choices. I don't have any specific ideas, but I'll keep thinking about this. Additionally, this will keep the power creep to a minimum, as they design space goes "lateral" instead of "vertical".

Matthew Hayward wrote: You can design other token build paths out to wazoo, but if those paths don't deal the same amount of damage then players generally won't be interested.

For the players who will be interested, they can already do that today. If you want to build a retribution based low AC paladin or taunting drawf fighter nothing is stopping you - and some people do that - more power too them!

Mike Steele and Matthew Hayward's comments got me thinking a lot about the original post. I'm going to counter your opinion with an unpopular one of my own - Don't worry about BIS.

Min maxers will always min max. You can pine for tokens to challenge the status quo or you can create fun builds and enjoy running them. There are already a lot of "good" options. Just because they don't approach highest possible damage output doesn't mean they're bad.

I think everyone agrees that build diversity is a good thing. I could be wrong, but I believe that the needle is already moving on this front. We have variety in some of the classes, with hopefully more to come. In the meantime, look to the BIS tokens to get inspiration, but don't feel like they're the only eventuality. The best build should always be the one you have the most fun running.

I apologize if any of this comes off with any sort of attitude. It's very hard to convey tone on the boards. Just trying to express my 2 cents.

MasterED wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: There might be a couple of unintended consequences.

Yep I no longer play anything but Normal with my TE. Same fun but more treasure.

Ed

I'd immediately sell everything and play sealed only if at all. No one is going to be thrilled about being put on a mtg style lot treadmill. Remember most people only play once a year, so for them having token roll out basically means you can probably only use it once.

Arnold wrote:

Matt Goodman wrote: This may be an unpopular opinion, but I would like token development to create many "good" options. In my casual searching, there are current best-in-slot (BIS) items for each of the classes. This makes all the top-tiered of that class play exactly the same. I think it would be really interesting to see other tokens that challenge the BIS, forcing the players to make choices. I don't have any specific ideas, but I'll keep thinking about this. Additionally, this will keep the power creep to a minimum, as they design space goes "lateral" instead of "vertical".

Matthew Hayward wrote: You can design other token build paths out to wazoo, but if those paths don't deal the same amount of damage then players generally won't be interested.

For the players who will be interested, they can already do that today. If you want to build a retribution based low AC paladin or taunting drawf fighter nothing is stopping you - and some people do that - more power too them!

Mike Steele and Matthew Hayward's comments got me thinking a lot about the original post. I'm going to counter your opinion with an unpopular one of my own - Don't worry about BIS.

Min maxers will always min max. You can pine for tokens to challenge the status quo or you can create fun builds and enjoy running them. There are already a lot of "good" options. Just because they don't approach highest possible damage output doesn't mean they're bad.

I think everyone agrees that build diversity is a good thing. I could be wrong, but I believe that the needle is already moving on this front. We have variety in some of the classes, with hopefully more to come. In the meantime, look to the BIS tokens to get inspiration, but don't feel like they're the only eventuality. The best build should always be the one you have the most fun running.

I apologize if any of this comes off with any sort of attitude. It's very hard to convey tone on the boards. Just trying to express my 2 cents.

I agree. If you want to compete. Compete.
You cant play epic magic without a full set of the most ridiculous cards.
You can play TD that way.

I had as much fun watching the DM take 22 retribution damage as anything.

I laughed my head off watching a vet act like a brownie.

Picc wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: There might be a couple of unintended consequences.

Yep I no longer play anything but Normal with my TE. Same fun but more treasure.

Ed

I'd immediately sell everything and play sealed only if at all. No one is going to be thrilled about being put on a mtg style lot treadmill. Remember most people only play once a year, so for them having token roll out basically means you can probably only use it once.

If you would do that if such an option was available, why not do it now?

The idea isn't that you'd be _forced_ to use only tokens from the last 6 years, it's that you'd have the _option_ to do so in a sanctioned manner (perhaps with some incentives).

I agree doing a 1 year sunset would be a nightmare.

It sounds like we are trying to do what some forum members already do, with variation.

Bloody nightmare, green with envy, sealed.

What we are discussing here is basically that.

Maybe it's the last 3 years of tokens only give you +6 treasure, the last 6 years give you +3.

Numbers can be debated if the idea is solid.

I like a catch up idea.

I am wondering if this is a solution in search of a problem.