TOPIC: Basic Changes to 2016 Character Cards

quip wrote: I'd like to see a reason for the Bard to choose Cabal gloves and bracelets vs Mithril gauntlets or gloves of the brute or just about any bracers. Right now, they gain very little benefit from the bracelets, and not equipping the Mithral or brute gloves is a big downside.
It has been suggested for other classes, but perhaps the Bard might actually choose bracelets of the cabal and potentially using a ring of focus if those could affect scrolls used. That might also boost the chance of wanting to use gloves of the cabal as well
Picturing a Bard wearing gloves of the brute and playing an instrument is funny.

Is there any interest in dividing the Druid into two Druid types?
One would be more oriented toward shape shifting and battle, and have spells potentially oriented around animals and plants, and the other Druid would be more elemental related.

Perhaps the shape shifting druid could regain some hit points when shifting, but would have less healing ability on an outward basis.perhaps the shifting droid could have a minor shift of his own that he would not need to expand a potion to shape shift. Perhaps a wolf or a hawk?

The elemental druid could gain some earth or stone related spell or spells or a bonus to their elemental spells, but lose the bonus of extra damage when shape shifting.

Maybe the Druid card could have a second *animal form* card on the other side that you triggered for the entire run at the start by burning a potion of polymorph X?

Raven wrote:

Adeya wrote: Basically I'm just trying to think of little ways that each individual can feel like he or she mattered. In a party of ten adventures it is all too easy for a newbie to feel like they were not needed. If each class has some unique way to contribute, many more players would walk away feeling like they were a crucial member of the team and remembering their 15 seconds of fame.

I agree - that "15 seconds of fame" is a great feeling, and can make or break a Dungeon run.

Back when there were just 6 or 7 classes, that element seemed baked in: The Paladin's Detect Evil (a Holy Pouch he wore around his neck would literally vibrate when he approached an evil artifact) allowed the party to be ready for combat before the undead creature emerged from the crypt. The Bard was able to point out a "Poison" rune on a chest and prevent the party from taking damage by opening it. The Wizard could use Detect Magic to shine her UV light on a wall and find additional clues for a puzzle. Basically, the adventure was written so each class had a chance to shine. With 7 classes and 7 Rooms, it wasn't too difficult to work in those special moments.

Now, with 10 players, and 12 classes to choose from, the dungeon can't be designed so any specific class is *essential.* And it's really hard to give everyone their 15 seconds in the spotlight... especially when there's so much cross-over between the roles.

ADDED: I'm not trying to say "Bah. TD isn't what it used to be. We should go back to the old ways. Grrr. Now get off my lawn."
The reality is that the game has had to evolve, and we've had to make changes to allow more people to participate, and to keep up with the rising cost of site rentals. Any changes we make will have to keep these practicalities in mind.

Sadly, I think the dungeons lost something precious when we lost those individual times to shine. I almost never use my bard symbols because losing a whole round to learn something about a monster most players already know about is just a wasted round I can slide and sing with Widseth's Mystical Lute. I wish the bardic lore was a free action if announced at the start of combat. I'd use it a lot more often if for no other reason than to make use of my memorization.

Amorgen Burke wrote: Sadly, I think the dungeons lost something precious when we lost those individual times to shine. I almost never use my bard symbols because losing a whole round to learn something about a monster most players already know about is just a wasted round I can slide and sing with Widseth's Mystical Lute. I wish the bardic lore was a free action if announced at the start of combat. I'd use it a lot more often if for no other reason than to make use of my memorization.

I second this. I do not understand why Bardic Lore (a passive ability) requires an active action to use. Free action 1/room makes sense

Even as a free action I would have to question weather or not I would be willing to give up my free action slot to do it. Might be a different story if I didn't have the monster Manual memorized.

valetutto wrote: Even as a free action I would have to question weather or not I would be willing to give up my free action slot to do it. Might be a different story if I didn't have the monster Manual memorized.

Nothing I can really say to that. It will never be costless to use a skill. What are you currently using your turn 1 and turn 2 free actions in combat for?

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

valetutto wrote: Even as a free action I would have to question weather or not I would be willing to give up my free action slot to do it. Might be a different story if I didn't have the monster Manual memorized.

Nothing I can really say to that. It will never be costless to use a skill.

I dunno, Arcanist. It doesn't cost the Rogue anything to open the Rogue box, and that's a skill. Admittedly one which is placed in puzzle rooms, not during combat.. but the Rogue has a different power to use during combat (Sneak Attack) which costs a round (mitigated by token use.)

The Bard also has an ability in combat (again, can be mitigated by combat use): they can use their action to SING instead of fighting. Does the Bardic Lore *also* have to penalize them a combat round?

And what about the Ranger? Their Sharpshooter bonus doesn't cost anything - it's baked into their stats. Fighters get their +2 to hit Weapon focus. Monks get a whole bunch of "free" skills (Feather Fall, Evasion, Deflect Missiles, Combat Prowess).

Honestly, I'm not advocating that Bards must get their Lore check for free.. just pointing out that other classes do have skills which don't cost them a combat round to use, or even a Free Action.

Raven wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

valetutto wrote: Even as a free action I would have to question weather or not I would be willing to give up my free action slot to do it. Might be a different story if I didn't have the monster Manual memorized.

Nothing I can really say to that. It will never be costless to use a skill.

I dunno, Arcanist. It doesn't cost the Rogue anything to open the Rogue box, and that's a skill. Admittedly one which is placed in puzzle rooms, not during combat.. but the Rogue has a different power to use during combat (Sneak Attack) which costs a round (mitigated by token use.)

The Bard also has an ability in combat (again, can be mitigated by combat use): they can use their action to SING instead of fighting. Does the Bardic Lore *also* have to penalize them a combat round?

And what about the Ranger? Their Sharpshooter bonus doesn't cost anything - it's baked into their stats. Fighters get their +2 to hit Weapon focus. Monks get a whole bunch of "free" skills (Feather Fall, Evasion, Deflect Missiles, Combat Prowess).

Honestly, I'm not advocating that Bards must get their Lore check for free.. just pointing out that other classes do have skills which don't cost them a combat round to use, or even a Free Action.

Agreed. It's just from a logistical standpoint I can't see the game allowing Lute=Bardsong+melee+knowedge check+addtnl free action in 1 round.

I can definitely agree lore checks and the like should be 1/room free actions but let it consume the free action to use

Adeya wrote:

• Make where people stand in combat matter. If a character enters melee combat then it ought be a lot more dangerous for him than ranged combat. Perhaps monsters always target melee fighters or get extra attacks on them. Or make it common that monsters have auras that auto damage anyone with an AC least than a certain value. Characters ought to fear approaching these monsters if they are only wearing a fancy robe instead of platemail.

I liked all your suggestions, but this on in particular makes sense to me. Having a damage aura for people who engage in melee with a monster of maybe 18 minus AC for normal, 22 minus AC for hardcore, and 26 minus AC for nightmare would go a long way to making AC meaningful.

I was thinking today - if there were an item: "Gloves of Min Maxing" that conveyed +4 to hit and +4 to melee damage, but set your AC to a static, unmodifiable 10, I'm confident it would not only see play, but be a legitimate contender for best in slot.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Adeya wrote:

• Make where people stand in combat matter. If a character enters melee combat then it ought be a lot more dangerous for him than ranged combat. Perhaps monsters always target melee fighters or get extra attacks on them. Or make it common that monsters have auras that auto damage anyone with an AC least than a certain value. Characters ought to fear approaching these monsters if they are only wearing a fancy robe instead of platemail.

I liked all your suggestions, but this on in particular makes sense to me. Having a damage aura for people who engage in melee with a monster of maybe 18 minus AC for normal, 22 minus AC for hardcore, and 26 minus AC for nightmare would go a long way to making AC meaningful.

I was thinking today - if there were an item: "Gloves of Min Maxing" that conveyed +4 to hit and +4 to melee damage, but set your AC to a static, unmodifiable 10, I'm confident it would not only see play, but be a legitimate contender for best in slot.

That's a great idea. And it only makes sense. Ranged puts you more out of danger than Melee. Today most players use Melee unless they can't... It would be nice if it was more of a difficult decision. Sure, you can run up to the dragon with your sword but you'd better have a high AC because he has some massive sweeping breath attacks. Or maybe you should hold back in cover with your arrows....

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Adeya wrote:

• Make where people stand in combat matter. If a character enters melee combat then it ought be a lot more dangerous for him than ranged combat. Perhaps monsters always target melee fighters or get extra attacks on them. Or make it common that monsters have auras that auto damage anyone with an AC least than a certain value. Characters ought to fear approaching these monsters if they are only wearing a fancy robe instead of platemail.

I liked all your suggestions, but this on in particular makes sense to me. Having a damage aura for people who engage in melee with a monster of maybe 18 minus AC for normal, 22 minus AC for hardcore, and 26 minus AC for nightmare would go a long way to making AC meaningful.

Some great ideas Matt and Adeya!!

I love the class matters in one room idea. AC maters. RFID wands.

To buff AC, we could also add a "Thorns" or "Reflect" effect. IE If a dragon is going to step on or tail swipe a fighter with lots of armour, that act should hurt the dragon (like when it hurts stepping on Lego (vs a wizard nerf ball)). So maybe when a monster melee attack hits a character with high AC, the monster also takes damage.

This could be:
A) an amount base on a chart… +6AC = 2 Dmg, +8AC = ... +10AC =.....
B ) An amount proportional to the damage the monster hit for. +10 AC reflects 10% Dmg. Meaning the harder the dragons stomped the more it hurt.

Raven wrote: With 7 classes and 7 Rooms, it wasn't too difficult to work in those special moments.

Now, with 10 players, and 12 classes to choose from, the dungeon can't be designed so any specific class is *essential.*

2 dungeons * (7 rooms - final rooms) = 12 rooms.
12 rooms to 12 classes… Just a thought

Granted, your 15 seconds is not guaranteed when doing just one dungeon, but the two dungeons are part of one story.

And if Melee attackers were more likely to get hurt it would make stoneskin and other protection spells more useful. As a Lv5 Ranger maybe it is worth a round to cast a protective spell on myself and then jumping in on Melee. Or having another spellcaster protect me.