TOPIC: Technology + Analytics?

Pulling from a thread in the 2015 Character Card suggestions, I think Rob H.’s idea deserves some additional consideration.

Rob H. wrote: (Wish list)
General - Stop using cards and start using Tablets (Galaxy Tab, IPAD, etc...) Yes, this would be an expensive start up idea but, it would make everyone's life easier. The ability to sync tablets for an adventure (the DM tablet can follow the party) would fix a great majority of the player/DM issues I have read up on in these forums. Tokens could be added to the character card (similar to several of the character generator files out there now)and would correctly show the stat changes made. Character cards can still be handed out for nostalgia purposes but all tracked information would be handled by the "system".

With the caveat that I’m a relative newb, at least within the context of the Forum, and that I’ve never DM’d, I would humbly suggest that there may be a way to tiptoe to Rob’s ultimate fantasy.

1) Launch this on a limited number of runs to start. Keep this in mind for any training or hardware requirements; virtually every software or consumer goods company I know of will beta something first, and since this idea is an amalgamation of the two, makes sense to follow best practice.

2) Start with a spreadsheet instead of a program/app. It provides a future blueprint for coding anyways but would be far easier to design up front. If you use the base logic of either TD’s Character Generator or DAK’s Character Designer, and you can manually input both the “roll” and the dmg for each puck slide, Excel can do the heavy lifting of adding the roll to any existing bonuses and compare it to AC, and you capture two outputs: a calculation of hit/miss and damage, faster than most DM’s could do, and also trackable data for post-game laughs. (“Our Figher had a 17% hit ratio today. Guess who’s buying drinks tonight!”) This of course assumes that the spreadsheet would also have monster AC and HP.

In terms of actual combat mechanics, this requires someone to do some data entry, which could be solved a couple ways…

3a) The DM can do the data entry; again, having not done this myself, I <i>think</i> it would be easier to see where the puck ends, type in two numbers, and let Excel do the math.

3b) For the trial run, require the party to do the data entry. The DM calls off the official read of the puck. Assumes honor system, but as noted multiples times throughout the Forum, we rely on the honor system for HP as well, among other things.

But we still need to figure out hardware in both scenarios…

4a) Again, being a limited run, you could maybe get away with 8-10 tablets; one per DM per room, plus setup, plus spares. You don’t need a fancy iPad either; assume $300 a pop, so $3k is not insignificant but also not “we can’t afford to try this” scary.

4b) For the trial, have the party bring the hardware (since in the B scenario, they are also doing the data entry) This eliminates the theft concern, plus any startup cost to see if this helps at all. The spreadsheet would need monster’s AC/HP to do the calculations, but you could always hide/lock those portions of the spreadsheet to avoid the party seeing that information, and then just have some conditional logic that alerts the party when the bad guy is dead.

To me, this addresses a couple key items:

a) I think it has the potential to speed up the game, which seems like one of the most important considerations out there. We’re asking an awful lot of the DM’s, many of whom would probably not choose math as their favorite subject, particularly when ten other people are causing a ruckus all around them.

b) It gives us good data to separate the wheat from the chaff. Not only would you get To Hit %’s on both individuals (who’s the best slider?) and teams (what teams can bump most effectively?), but you also get a sense of who is maxing out damage potential on their tokens. If a +2 Long Sword has an average damage of 6.5, but my average wheel ends up at 5.6 (for example), then I clearly can do better at controlling the puck.

Sorry for the long post, but I thought the incorporation of technology and data analytics has a lot of merit and would love to get other ideas on the matter.

Cost is the barrier. Testing a run is expensive in and of itself, but full implementation is incredibly expensive. At any given time, there are 4 dungeons with 7 active parties and up to five for each in the tavern. This would be a minimum of 48 tablets, not including back ups due to damage or battery issues. This cost has to be passed on to the players in the form of more expensive tickets or tokens.

I know that the ticket price is at my upper end of my budget, and tokens are relatively close. A significant increase in either will impact many regular and casual TD fans.

While I love the idea, I think that this can't happen in the near future. Having experienced the issues we had with recording XP in 2013, I do not want to see something similar occur while in the middle of a dungeon.

Speaking from a Combat DM's viewpoint:

In order to give a Party the maximum time they need to enjoy the Room/solve a puzzle/combat, there is barely enough time as is to do everything on paper let alone with a tablet.

And, keep in mind that having the Party just read numbers to you while you plug them in seriously takes away from the true meaning of TD and turns it into one rather large video game. I know the younger generation enjoys video games, but I prefer social interaction games. Just saying.

I don't think tablets would ultimately save any time.

In less time than it takes to enter the slide number, I can look at the party card and add the numbers in my head to know if it's a hit, and write the damage on the combat board.

Staying on paper means we lose the chance to look at percentages and data, but I don't know that TA Ltd cares that much about it. It might be different if TD was a continuous event, but it's only 3.5 days a year. By the time we collected statistically significant data, it's over, and next year we start from scratch with a whole new set of tokens and adventures.

All things considered, I think the best thing players can do to optimize the process is preprint their party cards.

you would need about 20 per dungeon X4=80 (coach will have to get each pre room ready plus you will need extras for charging etc)

80 x $300 a pop=24K..that is way too much to invest on a maybe

plus as a coach. it would take more time putting stats into a tablet or phone(see the apps that were created last year)

paper and pen is the way to go. for time money etc

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:
plus as a coach. it would take more time putting stats into a tablet or phone(see the apps that were created last year)

I agree. I used the app to manage my characters for some of my runs and it was excellent for this purpose.

But as a coach I quickly concluded it was easier to fill out the party card with pen and paper. Once you have the hang of what to look for and where to find it, it's much simpler than any system where you have to enter every token.

BTW - blessings on the parties and individuals with preprinted party cards.

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: you would need about 20 per dungeon X4=80 (coach will have to get each pre room ready plus you will need extras for charging etc)

80 x $300 a pop=24K..that is way too much to invest on a maybe

plus as a coach. it would take more time putting stats into a tablet or phone(see the apps that were created last year)

paper and pen is the way to go. for time money etc

Though I am not disagreeing with you assessment that it might not be the way to go your calculations are incorrect on the number needed per dungeon. You just need one per each room (7) plus 2 for the coaches to input. Tablet 1 is in room :00, :24, :48, :12, :36 and repeat. While Tablet 2 is in :12, :36, :12, :36 and repeat. This would be 9 Tablets per run or 36 total (figure 40 because you have to have backups).

The players won't carry the tablet with them. Each DM would have 1 tablet for their room. When players entered they would pull up their party.

I also would recommend a few Android tablets that price $150 to $200 vs $300. So it would still be quite an initial cost at $8k but not near the $24k.

I think the other issues raised makes more sense however. If TD players were more organized (non-forum players) then I think it would make sense. Players could uploaded their characters builds (like many forumites already do) and then download them at GenCon. Coaches would just need to verify tokens (no calculations or enter tokens). However since I think we don't have that type of community outside of the forum yet (and I do stress yet). It do agree it does make sense to stick with paper and pen at this point.

EDIT: I don't know what a casual player would get out of this investment regardless of how much it would be. (It also sounds like at this point the coaches and DM wouldn't get much out of it). So again I think it is a wonderful idea, but I think Jeff should take the money and invest it into the Dungeon more people would get out of it.

jedibcg wrote: EDIT: I don't know what a casual player would get out of this investment regardless of how much it would be. (It also sounds like at this point the coaches and DM wouldn't get much out of it). So again I think it is a wonderful idea, but I think Jeff should take the money and invest it into the Dungeon more people would get out of it.

For what it's worth, my hypothesis is that it helps DM/coaches because of speed (and accuracy, though it's unclear that there's any penalty to DM or TA for what I'm sure are the occasional miscalculation). While I don't disagree that a good DM like Brad can go faster in their head than someone on Excel, my (limited) experience indicates that getting these DM's is far more the exception than the norm. And this is not a knock, as I am confident I would underwhelm in the same circumstances.

More broadly, I think there is value is trying to find a balance of incorporating technology. I understand that the foundation of TD is a socially driven RPG, not a video game, and that it's important to protect that foundation. But categorically ignoring options because of "cost" or "difficulty" is what is sending my mother-in-law into 2015 unable to fully utilize her PC, smartphone, apps of any sort, DVR and most of her in-car infotainment/navigation. And friends, we don't want TD to become like my mother-in-law.

Tsaelyn wrote:

jedibcg wrote: EDIT: I don't know what a casual player would get out of this investment regardless of how much it would be. (It also sounds like at this point the coaches and DM wouldn't get much out of it). So again I think it is a wonderful idea, but I think Jeff should take the money and invest it into the Dungeon more people would get out of it.

For what it's worth, my hypothesis is that it helps DM/coaches because of speed (and accuracy, though it's unclear that there's any penalty to DM or TA for what I'm sure are the occasional miscalculation). While I don't disagree that a good DM like Brad can go faster in their head than someone on Excel, my (limited) experience indicates that getting these DM's is far more the exception than the norm. And this is not a knock, as I am confident I would underwhelm in the same circumstances.

More broadly, I think there is value is trying to find a balance of incorporating technology. I understand that the foundation of TD is a socially driven RPG, not a video game, and that it's important to protect that foundation. But categorically ignoring options because of "cost" or "difficulty" is what is sending my mother-in-law into 2015 unable to fully utilize her PC, smartphone, apps of any sort, DVR and most of her in-car infotainment/navigation. And friends, we don't want TD to become like my mother-in-law.

ignoring cost? really? so if that means the difference between TD making a profit and losing money

I am sorry, TD is a business and cost should be an important part of it.
10-24K is a good chunk of change for a game that is played 3.5 days a year
FYI, those tablets will walk..they will have to be replaced...they will be dropped, they will be broken. they will become outdated...

*edit
go back and search for the people using the APP for the phone. it was good, but the time it took to enter it was a not quick or helpful
as a coach, we are responsible to get the card filled out and ask any questions players may have
24 minutes per group isn't enough using an app or tablet
hell sometimes we only have 12 minutes per group because we are short coaches. there is no way, I could do that in 12 minutes. I can do the paper in 12, but i use all 12 minutes
Yes I have coached one adventure by myself. it has happened the last 2 years for me. I have been a coach for 7+ years. i love anything that can help

the Apps help new people look up what tokens so (along with the token data base)

this is one place were technology actually makes things slower( for seasoned coaches)

as stated before come with the Spread sheet filled out

it makes coaching better

I would like to see a small bonus offered for a completed party card similar to the one that was offered in Truegrind. We started with +1 HP for having our stat line full on a pre-printed card.

I will second all that Lazlo mentioned and restate my concern about potential issues with electronic party cards. If you experienced the long waits to record experience in 2013, you may agree with me.

If you just give the tablet to the DMs, someone has to build the network and the software to to allow the eParty card to travel from room to room. That investment could easily eclipse the expense of the hardware. So, the cheapest way is to probably to have one per party, not one per DM.

And being in constant use, I doubt the thing would hold a charge for an entire shift. So, you need twice as many so that one is charging while the other is in use. If you try to have the DMs use them while plugged in, that's one more cable to trip over in the dark, and that's liability, and ripping a cable out of a tablet is another way to damage the hardware.

And yes, they will be dropped on that hard concrete floor, and at best a number of screens will be shattered every day. At worst, some may be turned into paperweights. And yes, in the glorious chaos, some will walk. So you need spares, and every year you'll need to repair and replace some.

In short, I don't think Lazlo's count is inaccurate. You're going to need a lot more than you think.

It sounds like a great idea but, as usual, the devil is in the details. Again, if this were a year-long event, there would be plenty of time to work out kinks and glitches. There isn't. The system will go down, and there will be big chunks of time when we will be using the same paper party cards.

Finally, here's a cold fact - whatever the expense turns out to be, it will not bring in a single penny to TDA. In business terms, it has a payback period of "never." (No one is going to say "I never played TD before, but I'm buying tix now because they have tablets!") So either Jeff has to take that money out of his pocket, or he has to raise the ticket price to buy the hardware and hire someone to spend the hundreds of hours to set it all up. If he's going to do either, he needs a very good reason. As sexy as a tech system would be, we have a functioning manual system. If anything, he needs to find ways to lower the ticket prices, not excuses to raise them.

FYI, I work in an IT department testing apps and websites on mobile devices, so I have some experience with them.

Brad Mortensen wrote:
Finally, here's a cold fact - whatever the expense turns out to be, it will not bring in a single penny to TDA. In business terms, it has a payback period of "never." (No one is going to say "I never played TD before, but I'm buying tix now because they have tablets!") So either Jeff has to take that money out of his pocket, or he has to raise the ticket price to buy the hardware and hire someone to spend the hundreds of hours to set it all up. If he's going to do either, he needs a very good reason. As sexy as a tech system would be, we have a functioning manual system. If anything, he needs to find ways to lower the ticket prices, not excuses to raise them.

FYI, I work in an IT department testing apps and websites on mobile devices, so I have some experience with them.

Well it is arguable whether their would be a return on the investment or not. The paper HAVE to be replaced. That is a cost. If the tablets don't need to replaced (not saying they wouldn't the rate is just the question) then they would eventually pay for themselves. I too work in IT dealing with setting up a mobile wifi network, to run ipod touches (that we supply to guest) and smartphones to access our network to provide them data as they transverse the venue on both our software and webase application. So I too have some experience here. You don't need to build a network in venue that has a network already in place (unless it is cost prohibitive). Any decent access point can handle the number of devices we are talking about connected to it. The cost of the software would be the same if the tablet is moving from room to room or staying in the room. The software has to exist in some form. Again though I don't think the cost model is the way to look at it.

I agree with you Brad and Laz just not for the reasons you are putting forth.

What would the average player get out of it?

Consistency? Maybe slightly but you would still have a human entering the tokens so there is still the chance for error.

Speed? That is clearly debatable. Though if we made tokens with a bar code they could be scanned in. That would be debatable if we wanted to muck up the token design.

Like I mentioned before when the vast majority of players (which they currently aren't) are spending as much time as we do on thinking about TD, their tokens, their character builds and are showing up with those builds then it make speed things up. Show up with your unique code for your character and it gets loaded into the party card. Coach verifies tokens and you are good to go. But atlas we are not there yet.

If you are already on the forums then you know you can show up with a pre-printed card that the coach can use to fill out your card with more consistency and speed so what would you gain also?

The once a year thing too is a very valid point today. If or when TD starts do several runs then again the value of this increases.

TLDR: Idea is not invalid, just unnecessary today.