TOPIC: Astral runs in 2015?

Disbeeleaf wrote: I understand your point. What it boils down to is not a conclusion that Jeff wants - that only the most absolutely necessary relics should be made because they are likely to be obsoleted a year later. Then you are compelled to make the new item, because we want to be the best we can be, and the old one sits on the (s)crap heap. As for legendaries, even more judiciousness is warranted, as the cost is high, and some of them are also obsolete, or at least so far - totally unnecessary.

With respect to our rod of nil tongue - we made one and then got one in a draw. We have two, so maybe they can be used as knitting needles. A dead bee sounds like a fair trade, except with autumn setting in, we already have a lot of dead bees.

On the other hand, if you could regularly trade in older relics and legendary tokens for newer ones, that would defeat the purpose of having them act as a sink to soak up extra tokens each year.

Mike Steele wrote: ...that would defeat the purpose of
having them act as a sink to soak up extra tokens each year.

Does Jeff reuse the turned in tokens? IE re-sticker them for the next year?

I've got to imagine most tokens don't see much wear an tear.

I have not heard anyone other than yourself indicate that rationale for making relics and legendaries.

There are lots of ways to soak up excess tokens, that by the way, people paid a lot of money to get.

My point is that our production of relics and legendaries is going to be much more calculated and judicious than it used to be if they are subject to being rendered obsolete so quickly and definitively. A means of maintaining the value of now obsoleted relics and legendaries or a more careful selection of future relics and legendaries would resolve the issue.

Disbeeleaf wrote: I have not heard anyone other than yourself indicate that rationale for making relics and legendaries.

There are lots of ways to soak up excess tokens, that by the way, people paid a lot of money to get.

My point is that our production of relics and legendaries is going to be much more calculated and judicious than it used to be if they are subject to being rendered obsolete so quickly and definitively. A means of maintaining the value of now obsoleted relics and legendaries or a more careful selection of future relics and legendaries would resolve the issue.

it isnt obsolete..so the wizards have a relic now..you are saying it is obsolete...so what about the druid. what relic weapon do they have?
even if it will be obsolete someday, it is cheaper to make for the people that want a relic but cant afford to make a higher end one

because it is obsolete to your character, doesnt mean it is for everyone else

Disbeeleaf wrote: I have not heard anyone other than yourself indicate that rationale for making relics and legendaries.

There are lots of ways to soak up excess tokens, that by the way, people paid a lot of money to get.

My point is that our production of relics and legendaries is going to be much more calculated and judicious than it used to be if they are subject to being rendered obsolete so quickly and definitively. A means of maintaining the value of now obsoleted relics and legendaries or a more careful selection of future relics and legendaries would resolve the issue.

You really don't think that getting excess tokens out of circulation was a main driver in both trade item tokens and relics / legendaries?

I'm curious, what are the many other ways you are referring to that get excess tokens out of circulation? Auctions only got GP out of circulation.

The rationale was income. I don't mind that at all - except when expensive tokens are rapidly obsoleted. It takes a little extra thought to develop new expensive tokens without destroying the old ones, and that would be a favorable distinguishing feature that we are still waiting for. No explanation other than money carries a shred of reality with it.

Disbeeleaf wrote: The rationale was income. I don't mind that at all - except when expensive tokens are rapidly obsoleted. It takes a little extra thought to develop new expensive tokens without destroying the old ones, and that would be a favorable distinguishing feature that we are still waiting for. No explanation other than money carries a shred of reality with it.

Well sure, more TD income is the result of getting excess tokens out of circulation and requiring people to buy more tokens for transmutation.

I agree that it is best to not quickly obsolete tokens.

Mike Steele wrote:

Disbeeleaf wrote: The rationale was income. I don't mind that at all - except when expensive tokens are rapidly obsoleted. It takes a little extra thought to develop new expensive tokens without destroying the old ones, and that would be a favorable distinguishing feature that we are still waiting for. No explanation other than money carries a shred of reality with it.

Well sure, more TD income is the result of getting excess tokens out of circulation and requiring people to buy more tokens for transmutation.

I agree that it is best to not quickly obsolete tokens.

then people should stop whining at creation time..i want bigger and better tokens/powers

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Disbeeleaf wrote: The rationale was income. I don't mind that at all - except when expensive tokens are rapidly obsoleted. It takes a little extra thought to develop new expensive tokens without destroying the old ones, and that would be a favorable distinguishing feature that we are still waiting for. No explanation other than money carries a shred of reality with it.

Well sure, more TD income is the result of getting excess tokens out of circulation and requiring people to buy more tokens for transmutation.

I agree that it is best to not quickly obsolete tokens.

then people should stop whining at creation time..i want bigger and better tokens/powers

Trying to control power growth isn't the same as whining.

Just wait a few years until we can transmute legendary tokens for Epic ones.

Disbeeleaf wrote: The rationale was income. I don't mind that at all - except when expensive tokens are rapidly obsoleted. It takes a little extra thought to develop new expensive tokens without destroying the old ones, and that would be a favorable distinguishing feature that we are still waiting for. No explanation other than money carries a shred of reality with it.

Be thankful that you're not on the Wizard's of the Coast rollercoaster ride of Magic sets (which just got revised ). In October of each year, the set from two years ago rotates out and card values drop through the floor for Standard format. Less than three percent of the cards will migrate into the Modern format. At least with True Dungeon, devaluation is not set by a calender! Happy Halloween.

Disbeeleaf wrote: I think the rod of nil tongue should be transmutable to the +3 staff of focus without any additional cost. Otherwise I'm going to trade it to my cat for a used toothpick that fell on the floor.

Disbeeleaf, while I agree with you on the continuous problems of power creep, I don't agree with all the Rod of Niltongue hate.

I mean, if you have such an issue with them, why don't you just trade or sell them away? eBay shows that one was recently sold for $150, which seems to be the price a lot of traders are valuing it.

A bit on the low end for a Relic, but considering that a lot of them were made out of crappy UR weapons which were worth far less, it seems understandable.

If you really think it is worth that little, then why don't I trade you an entire box of toothpicks for yours?

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Disbeeleaf wrote: I think the rod of nil tongue should be transmutable to the +3 staff of focus without any additional cost. Otherwise I'm going to trade it to my cat for a used toothpick that fell on the floor.

why should it be? then everyone is going to say my old legendary should be traded for this one...why stop there...it will avalanche down.
because you are not happy with what you made at the time, is not a reason it "should" be traded in

Yet wasn't there a recent thread which discussed whether or not Artifacts should be allowed to "update"? And if we allow some sort of "trade in" for Artifacts, wouldn't the issue avalanche down as well?

For the record, I am sympathetic about how the unrestrained power creep has sadly obsoleted or eclipsed a lot of existing artifacts. I just wonder what the best solution would be.

Disbeeleaf wrote: I understand your point. What it boils down to is not a conclusion that Jeff wants - that only the most absolutely necessary relics should be made because they are likely to be obsoleted a year later. Then you are compelled to make the new item, because we want to be the best we can be, and the old one sits on the (s)crap heap. As for legendaries, even more judiciousness is warranted, as the cost is high, and some of them are also obsolete, or at least so far - totally unnecessary.

Well, that's the problem with the constant power creep.

Why buy a given UR this year when it will likely be obsoleted a year later?

With respect to our rod of nil tongue - we made one and then got one in a draw. We have two, so maybe they can be used as knitting needles. A dead bee sounds like a fair trade, except with autumn setting in, we already have a lot of dead bees.

???

I thought you got one of the Rods of Niltongue from the Golden Ticket bag (which was neither making it nor a "draw").

Disbeeleaf wrote: A means of maintaining the value of now obsoleted relics and legendaries or a more careful selection of future relics and legendaries would resolve the issue.

Why just Relics and Legendaries? Shouldn't UR's deserve the same consideration?

Disbeeleaf wrote: The rationale was income. I don't mind that at all - except when expensive tokens are rapidly obsoleted. It takes a little extra thought to develop new expensive tokens without destroying the old ones, and that would be a favorable distinguishing feature that we are still waiting for. No explanation other than money carries a shred of reality with it.

I agree with you.

Dennis Burdick wrote: Be thankful that you're not on the Wizard's of the Coast rollercoaster ride of Magic sets (which just got revised ). In October of each year, the set from two years ago rotates out and card values drop through the floor for Standard format. Less than three percent of the cards will migrate into the Modern format. At least with True Dungeon, devaluation is not set by a calender! Happy Halloween.

Uh, really?

Don't plenty of tokens get devalued each year around token development time due to reprints and substitutes?

Alchemist's Pouches

Bracers of Fire
Ioun Stones of Faceted Amber
Potions of Death's Door
Torcs of Natural Armor

+1 Mighty Short Bows (briefly)
+2 Staves of Power (briefly)
Bracers of Supreme Archery
Elixirs of Life
Horns of Plenty (devaluation may be delayed till the recipes come out)
Mithral Gauntlets (slightly)
UR Specials
Widseth's Mystical Lutes

have all devalued over the past several weeks.

And last year, around the same time, it was a different set of tokens that devalued around this time.

And at least Wizards has largely abided by its Reserve List promises, unlike True Dungeon....

I always assumed folks put thought into the transmutes they choose to transmute. There have been a lot that In My Opinion weren't worth transmuting into. As for the Rod, while it might seem weak to you as a wizard that just got a new wizard relic, it still has its place as a +3 weapon. It also had the wonderful ability of taking any low rate UR weapon and upscaling it.


The design of the transmutes were indeed to soak up the tokens. Yes the tokens we pay good money for but the tokens we had sitting around doing nothing but collecting dust.

Its an interesting idea to allow a pathway to convert existing relics into a new and different relic but it shouldn't be done without a cost. I think its far too early for this but many years down the road I can perceive the need to do something with them.

I don't normally like to weigh in on power creep mostly because I think some power creep is good and too much is bad. IMO the overall power level TD started at was "too low" because they didn't leave themselves enough design space to create enough variety with tokens. Not conceptually but in the crunch. There just isn't much variation using whole numbers between 0 and 1. Had they made everything with at least 0-3 then you could have general levels for common, uncommons, rare and URs.


As for the post at hand, It would be nice if the Astral Run did make an appearence. If we abandon the idea of the white backed tokens it could be ready to roll with just some adventure ideas from Jeff.