TOPIC: About Power Creep . . .

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<br />Balancing the role that tokens play in the big picture of True Dungeon is a tough issue to address. I think AC really is the weakest point overall right now, but not completely "out of control" yet. Being mindful of what tokens are out there, how they stack, and watching out for "breaking" combos is one thing... planning the long-term yearly release strategy for the tokens is another. In the end though, you will end up with experienced players "decked out to the nines" in purps.<br /><br />As much as I don't like imposing restrictions on equipment (as it smacks of the deck-construction restrictions the DCI eventually had to level in Magic: the Gathering tournaments), this could be a possible solution:<br /><br />Player<br />Level      Num of Purps      Num of Reds      Total Rares<br />1-2                1                    9                    10<br />3-4                2                    8                    10<br />5-6                3                    7                    10<br />7-8                4                    8                    12<br />9                  5                    7                    12<br />10+                6                    9                    15<br /><br />With the number of uncommon/common being un-restricted.<br /><br />thoughts?<br />

<br /><br />I hope TD never turns to something like that!  I think players should be able to buy and use what they like.<br />

<br /><br />But this is where RealLife (tm) comes in to play in TD, where it doesn't in real D&D.  In D&D, players don't have all that much gold to start with, so they must deal with crappy weapons and only get better ones as they get more experience.  But in TD, if you have money in RL, then you can play your first TD run loaded to the gills.  Not that I think that token-a-holics are doing anything wrong, but I think limiting people's equipment based on their experience is at least a reasonable idea.

<br />This really would hurt the mixed group games where Player X,Y, and Z might be more experience but they bring their friend W along who is new to TD, because he is such low level he would not be as uber as his pals.  Or worse yet, new player gets 1 slot, and shows up and the other 7 have great gear and he's gimped and they can't loan him stuff appropriate for his class.  Nah, just this sounds too complex and further highlights the differences between the haves and have nots.<br />

<br /><br />I don't think it is all that "complex", but I get the point of mixed groups... that is something I didn't think of when I put that idea forward earlier. I don't think I would have enjoyed my first TD run (and appreciated my later, more geared up runs as much) if someone had loaned me 6 purps for the run though... my character hasn't taken a purp into the dungeon yet (I hope to soon, though!) so I may not have an appreciation for the viewpoints of those who do have a wealth of purps to choose from. I proposed the chart above mainly as a way to set an upper limit to assist in designing scenarios which can accomodate the most modest of parties to the best equipped. <br /><br />We are having a great discussion though and I would love to hear more people's opinions/ideas!<br />

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<br />Balancing the role that tokens play in the big picture of True Dungeon is a tough issue to address. I think AC really is the weakest point overall right now, but not completely "out of control" yet. Being mindful of what tokens are out there, how they stack, and watching out for "breaking" combos is one thing... planning the long-term yearly release strategy for the tokens is another. In the end though, you will end up with experienced players "decked out to the nines" in purps.<br /><br />As much as I don't like imposing restrictions on equipment (as it smacks of the deck-construction restrictions the DCI eventually had to level in Magic: the Gathering tournaments), this could be a possible solution:<br /><br />Player<br />Level      Num of Purps      Num of Reds       Total Rares<br />1-2                1                     9                     10<br />3-4                2                     8                     10<br />5-6                3                     7                     10<br />7-8                4                     8                     12<br />9                   5                     7                     12<br />10+                6                     9                     15<br /><br />With the number of uncommon/common being un-restricted.<br /><br />thoughts?<br />

<br /><br />I hope TD never turns to something like that!  I think players should be able to buy and use what they like.<br />

<br /><br />But this is where RealLife (tm) comes in to play in TD, where it doesn't in real D&D.  In D&D, players don't have all that much gold to start with, so they must deal with crappy weapons and only get better ones as they get more experience.  But in TD, if you have money in RL, then you can play your first TD run loaded to the gills.  Not that I think that token-a-holics are doing anything wrong, but I think limiting people's equipment based on their experience is at least a reasonable idea.<br />

<br /><br />But what if your D&D char came from a wealthy family, OR was given his fathers +3 sword and armor...or what if... ???

This is a great discussion and everyone here is making a contribution that expands the idea base. My humble opinion is that limiting purps for low level characters would more closely mimic character development in D+D, but it would significantly deter token sales to newer players and may take some fun out of the game for newer players. One critical need in my opinion is the continuing involvement of new players, who for the sake of maintaining and growing this endeavor, need to be appreciated in their own way as much as the veterans. Gary, I agree with your "semantic improvements" to my quote. I also agree that as things progress, thoughtful dilligence and tweaking will keep TD balanced and growing in the right direction(s). Just a "token" thought (ha, ha). <br /><br />

<br />But what if your D&D char came from a wealthy family, OR was given his fathers +3 sword and armor...or what if... ???<br />

<br /><br />As a DM, I never just say to my players "Go ahead and choose any item out of the DMG that you want."  Maybe other DMs work that way, but I make them earn the items they get.  I think it's cooler to be able to say "I got this +2 bastard sword while rescuing the princess" than to have it handed to you or bought it in a shop.<br /><br />Again, I'm not saying that we should implement those restrictions.  I'm just saying that it's a reasonable suggestion.  In the end, it's the player that should impose their own restrictions and use the equipment that allows them to have the most fun.  The Commando Run is a perfect example of this.<br />

<br />One critical need in my opinion is the continuing involvement of new players, who for the sake of maintaining and growing this endeavor, need to be appreciated in their own way as much as the veterans.

<br /><br />Here, here! I totally agree.<br />

Oh yes - I agree...I never had a shop better than the one in the Village of Hommlet!  My chars had to get things VS monsters or in dungeons...but that is not saying I would not allow someone to start with a family heirloom...<br /><br />*besides...it made for more plots to get said item taken, or ruined...*   :evil7:<br /><br />I used to have quite the Jeff Martin DM side to me back in the day!

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<br />One critical need in my opinion is the continuing involvement of new players, who for the sake of maintaining and growing this endeavor, need to be appreciated in their own way as much as the veterans.

<br /><br />Here, here! I totally agree.<br /> <br />

<br /><br />Me too!<br /><br />And keeping options for new players wide open is one way TD attracts new players!<br /><br />I also think having game levels open to the "new" players is key.<br /><br />TD is giving away a bag of tokens with every paid ticket...for some this is the only bag they get, year to year...so that is a good perk!<br /><br />I think TD is very geared to the "new" players and I know I would struggle to find more things TD could do to improve in this arena.<br /><br />G

Heres a crazy idea. What if each party was given a effective party level based on its level of equipment (number of purples, average AC, etc.) and player levels. And in the dungeon the encounters are scaled based on the party level. So a monster might have higher hit points, AC and to hit if the party level is say level 3 vs. level 1. It would be pretty easy to come up with a formula to set the partys effective level in the prep room. It could be written on the party card and the DM's could have a set of stats for each monster based on party level (similar to normal vs nightmare).<br /><br />Either that or a rust monster would take care of that power creep in a flash.

<br />Balancing the role that tokens play in the big picture of True Dungeon is a tough issue to address. I think AC really is the weakest point overall right now, but not completely "out of control" yet. Being mindful of what tokens are out there, how they stack, and watching out for "breaking" combos is one thing... planning the long-term yearly release strategy for the tokens is another. In the end though, you will end up with experienced players "decked out to the nines" in purps.<br /><br />As much as I don't like imposing restrictions on equipment (as it smacks of the deck-construction restrictions the DCI eventually had to level in Magic: the Gathering tournaments), this could be a possible solution:<br /><br />Player<br />Level      Num of Purps      Num of Reds       Total Rares<br />1-2                1                     9                     10<br />3-4                2                     8                     10<br />5-6                3                     7                     10<br />7-8                4                     8                     12<br />9                   5                     7                     12<br />10+                6                     9                     15<br /><br />With the number of uncommon/common being un-restricted.<br /><br />thoughts?<br /><br /><br />

<br /><br />I think this would take a lot of the fun out of TD for anyone except perhaps the brand new players. And even then, a new player may go into the dungeon expecting to rely on their more experienced friends - the ones that now would have restrictions.....  Pass thanks.

<br />Heres a crazy idea. What if each party was given a effective party level based on its level of equipment (number of purples, average AC, etc.) and player levels. And in the dungeon the encounters are scaled based on the party level. So a monster might have higher hit points, AC and to hit if the party level is say level 3 vs. level 1. It would be pretty easy to come up with a formula to set the partys effective level in the prep room. It could be written on the party card and the DM's could have a set of stats for each monster based on party level.<br /><br />Either that or a rust monster would take care of that power creep in a flash.<br />

<br /><br />That idea has been suggested in one form or another in the past...not sure what the final thoughts were of it.<br /><br />I think keeping things simple with 2 or at most 3 game difficulty settings, is what Jeff sees as best for now.

<br />*besides...it made for more plots to get said item taken, or ruined...*  :evil7:<br />

<br /><br />Are you trying to give Jeff ideas?  :O