TOPIC: About Power Creep . . .

As True Dungeon continues to grow, equipment in any form is part of what keeps players interested.  This is a double edged sword.  People want the best equipment available, and when they have the best equipment, they want better equipment.  Over time however, this can bring the problem of power creep. <br /><br />Power Creep in True Dungeon is very unique. Because you want to continue to woo new players, the challenges in the dungeon cannot creep up with tokens.  Working as a team makes all players want everyone in their party to be as "tanked out" as possible.  Having new and veteran players in the same party make the challenges of the directors even harder, as balance between the 2 groups continues to wane.<br /><br />The first solution that I see to this issue is powerful consumables.  Scroll: Keen Edge was a really weak rare, that I was quite unhappy to pull several of this year.  If it would have enchanted a weapon for the entire dungeon, I would have been much more likely to use them.  I may have been tempted to use Keen Edge on the Iuz Snake had both 19-20 been on the same slide board.  But, alas, I used none in the 4 times through the dungeon this year.  Had I been able to use a scroll and a spell with my Bracelets of the Zephyr, using a consumable would have been more likely.<br /><br />Chain Lightning in contrast, was used in 3 of my 4 runs.  (BTW would Chain Lightning hit the snake twice? 2 slider boards and all  =D . . .)  There were 2 rooms where I saw Chain Lightning used: Stirges and Monk/Angel.  Chain Lightning seems to be near the sweet spot of powerful consumables.<br /><br />Mage Armor is another excellent consumable.  However, it should be "fixed" to be usable with the Cloak and Robe of the Mage.  Most of the Fighters, Clerics, and Paladins that went through the dungeon with me had 23 or higher defense.  As a Wizard, I was stuck at about 13.  Would a 17-20 be unbalancing?  Make us want to use the rarer consumables.  The more we use the more we buy!<br /><br />The flip side to the Mage Armor argument, however, is again Power Creep, at least at first glance.  But, if you dig deeper, you see: 1. Mage Armor is a consumable rare, and 2. still well below the higher end Armor Classes that will be seen in a party.  As a consumable, Mage Armor is a limited supply item.  Power Creep can be kept in check by not producing them every year, as (theoretically) most will be used in the year they are released.  Because the average Armor Class of a Wizard is on the bottom side of the party, Power Creep may not even apply in this case.<br /><br />One of the biggest areas of concern for Power Creep is Armor Class.  Currently a Fighter can achieve +20 to AC or more.  A Fighter that makes a "perfect" AC pull from a (not 00) token pack given on a run can achieve a +11 to AC (Plate Armor +8, Large Shield +2, and Great Helm +1).  This is a huge amount of Power Creep.  A monster with +6 to Attack has a 25% chance to hit the new guy and a 5% chance to hit the veteran.  <br /><br />To help curb this Power Creep I suggest not printing anything more that the "tank" classes can use to boost AC.  Instead make a new arc similar to the Dragonscale Set.  Over several years, items could be made to reduce cold damage, acid damage, and other damage types.  These items, like the Dragonscale Set, also might have a lower AC bonus to help offset the damage reduction.  Also monsters might force a hand slot to be used by something (like a mirror) to help lower the hyper-ACs.  A room that is laden with magnets might also slow down people wearing (and using) metal items, allowing them to attack every other round, forcing decisions between AC and damage output.<br /><br />The best solutions for Power Creep seem to be: more usable consumables, esoteric challenges within the dungeon, and finally making creative items that do not push any one class over the other.  Items like the Amulet of Wonder, Medallion of Greyhawk, and Belt of Retrieval do a great job expanding useful items without causing a Power Creep.  Items like the Bracelets of the Zephyr should also be able to use consumables to turn over more tokens, giving cause to buy more token packs.  <br /><br />Any thoughts from the people who have a plethora of tokens already? or the new guys just starting a collection?

I agree with your positions. The best way to manage the power creep issue is to focus mainly on developing consumables, expand non-combat capabilities of all classes, minimize additional AC bonuses to fighter classes, and my mantra has been to create situations and tokens that allow the non-fighter classes to excel in their own niches. One other idea that  admit I've seen used successfully elsewhere is to balance the more powerful items with a disadvantage as well (i.e. the oversized weapon unbalances the player on a slide of 5 or less and opens them up to +4 attack from the monster). There are unqiue challenges in designing TD. In pencil and paper, adding details to combat is easy, but in TD it challenges a DM already spread thin trying to manage 8 people to complete a scene in a little room in 12 minutes, so I'm not sure it can work under the current setup.  <br /><br />It's possible that the time may come in the future where different versions of TD will be required for different experience levels (and/or different token classes). This year we played one run of nightmare with a group comprised half of second year players and half of new players, and kept everyone alive to the end, but it took a steady and heavy stream of healing. A little more divergence between experienced and new players, and they may not be able to successfully run the same dungeon at the same time together.

I agree with the issues on principle.<br /><br /><br />

<br />The first solution that I see to this issue is powerful consumables.  Scroll: Keen Edge was a really weak rare, that I was quite unhappy to pull several of this year.  If it would have enchanted a weapon for the entire dungeon, I would have been much more likely to use them.  I may have been tempted to use Keen Edge on the Iuz Snake had both 19-20 been on the same slide board.  But, alas, I used none in the 4 times through the dungeon this year.  Had I been able to use a scroll and a spell with my Bracelets of the Zephyr, using a consumable would have been more likely.<br /><br />Chain Lightning in contrast, was used in 3 of my 4 runs.  (BTW would Chain Lightning hit the snake twice? 2 slider boards and all  =D . . .)  There were 2 rooms where I saw Chain Lightning used: Stirges and Monk/Angel.  Chain Lightning seems to be near the sweet spot of powerful consumables.<br />

<br /><br />Excellent points on the need for more useful and powerful consumables.<br /><br /><br />

<br />Mage Armor is another excellent consumable.  However, it should be "fixed" to be usable with the Cloak and Robe of the Mage.  Most of the Fighters, Clerics, and Paladins that went through the dungeon with me had 23 or higher defense.  As a Wizard, I was stuck at about 13.  Would a 17-20 be unbalancing?  Make us want to use the rarer consumables.  The more we use the more we buy!<br /><br />The flip side to the Mage Armor argument, however, is again Power Creep, at least at first glance.  But, if you dig deeper, you see: 1. Mage Armor is a consumable rare, and 2. still well below the higher end Armor Classes that will be seen in a party.  As a consumable, Mage Armor is a limited supply item.  Power Creep can be kept in check by not producing them every year, as (theoretically) most will be used in the year they are released.  Because the average Armor Class of a Wizard is on the bottom side of the party, Power Creep may not even apply in this case.<br />

<br /><br />I'll have to disagree here. Wizards can *already* achieve an AC in the 17-20 range. Robe of the Mage + Cloak of the Mage + Bracers of Defense (+2) + Amulet of Armor + Gloves of Dexterity is already AC 19. Throwing another 4 on top of that is just overkill. Plus, the moment you let Mage Armor stack with Robe/Cloak, then the Bards start complaining about the old days when Mage Armor stacked with normal armor. Mage Armor is fine, as is. And is still the best protection for Wizards without access to Purps.<br /><br /><br />

<br />One of the biggest areas of concern for Power Creep is Armor Class.  Currently a Fighter can achieve +20 to AC or more.  A Fighter that makes a "perfect" AC pull from a (not 00) token pack given on a run can achieve a +11 to AC (Plate Armor +8, Large Shield +2, and Great Helm +1).  This is a huge amount of Power Creep.  A monster with +6 to Attack has a 25% chance to hit the new guy and a 5% chance to hit the veteran.  <br />

<br /><br />Um...how is this a "huge amount of Power Creep"?  Full Plate and Large Shield have been around since 2005, so even three years ago, a lucky pull could already lead to +10 AC. More recently (last year) we do have the Great Helm, but that additional +1 AC hardly amounts to a "huge amount of Power Creep."<br /><br /><br />

<br />To help curb this Power Creep I suggest not printing anything more that the "tank" classes can use to boost AC.  Instead make a new arc similar to the Dragonscale Set.  Over several years, items could be made to reduce cold damage, acid damage, and other damage types.  These items, like the Dragonscale Set, also might have a lower AC bonus to help offset the damage reduction.  Also monsters might force a hand slot to be used by something (like a mirror) to help lower the hyper-ACs.  A room that is laden with magnets might also slow down people wearing (and using) metal items, allowing them to attack every other round, forcing decisions between AC and damage output.<br />

<br /><br />I do like these ideas however.<br /><br />

Isn't a certain amount of Power Creep expected as players get to 5th level and beyond?  I mean - our CHARs don't level (without magical aid - which is UBER cool!) but we players who have been around 4-5 years should almost expect to see some better things from time to time.  (Skull and Rod are good examples.)  <br /><br />As for how power creep items get introduced, well TD has two options (that I think we all see clearly) ...make them UR only (not so hard to get for some) or make them unique items subject to special runs or treasure pulls (much more difficult to get for all.)<br /><br />Personally, I think TD does a great job of managing power creep.  Be it Dave, or anyone that helps in the design and creation part.  KUDOS to you!<br /><br />TD has been around since 2003 - seriously making tokens since 2004 or 05.  That is a 3-4 year timeframe.  What is the best weapon we have on the market today - a +2/+3 weapon (ok not counting a DoMT bonus item)?  That does not seem to be too much creep given 3-4 years of adventures and 5th level players!<br /><br />Now that said - I do 100% agree that some consumables need to be made more potent so that they get used.  I guess this is the opposite of POWER CREEP (POWER STAGNATION - ???).  I too have never really cared for pulling a Keen Edge, or Detect Undead, or my 100th +1 Short Sword.  (OK that was a peronsal issue...not really a general problem.)  However, over time I think the sets have weeded out most of the laggers and we have a useful core of items with some specific class items which may be useless to some, but highly valued by others.<br /><br />I was thrilled this year when two things happened 1. the Belt was thrown into the realm making potions more user friendly and 2. we saw the +1 Mighty Longbow.  Both of these items had some great in-game bonuses with few drawbacks  The Belt taking a slot that was hands down a lock for most players was a great check on power creep - but personally, I thought the belt was a great RED in that folks without a PURP girdle could get the same (or better) bonuses BY USING potions!  This item rocked as it made potions part of the game for some, and it took a slot that was pretty much filled and forgotten.  Likewise the +1ML was a nice way to say - look you can do nice damage with a range weapon!<br /><br />OK so all that said, I think TD is doing a fine job of taking care of Power Creep...as much as many of us would like to see +3 weapons (especially a sling!) I think we are still in the days of +2 with maybe some +3 vs.  Give it one more year maybe and I can see a few +3 weapons...(especially blunt ones...)  =D

<br />(BTW would Chain Lightning hit the snake twice? 2 slider boards and all  =D . . .) 

<br /><br />No...<br />2 sliders boards, but still only one monster.<br />(just in case anyone really wanted to know)

That all makes sense Gary, and yes, as people go up in level, you should see some advances in their skills and capabilities as well as equipment. The main effects that I expect will occur with the current path in the next few years will be a further divergence between new players and those with limited resources as opposed to veteran players and those with resources (can buy purps at will). Ultimately, the standard run will be too easy for the veterans and the high difficulty run (nightmare this year) will be impossible for the new or limited people. In addition, there are significant balance issues between classes, and the non fighter classes need continued boosting and opportunity in TD (which by the way, I think they got this year) with specialized tokens for them as well as dungeon situations that require their specific capabilities. In the bigger picture, TD will always be a work in progress and as long as people pay attention to these issues, they can always be managed. Just my humble opinions.

Balancing the role that tokens play in the big picture of True Dungeon is a tough issue to address. I think AC really is the weakest point overall right now, but not completely "out of control" yet. Being mindful of what tokens are out there, how they stack, and watching out for "breaking" combos is one thing... planning the long-term yearly release strategy for the tokens is another. In the end though, you will end up with experienced players "decked out to the nines" in purps.<br /><br />As much as I don't like imposing restrictions on equipment (as it smacks of the deck-construction restrictions the DCI eventually had to level in Magic: the Gathering tournaments), this could be a possible solution:<br /><br />Player<br />Level      Num of Purps      Num of Reds       Total Rares<br />1-2                1                     9                     10<br />3-4                2                     8                     10<br />5-6                3                     7                     10<br />7-8                4                     8                     12<br />9                   5                     7                     12<br />10+                6                     9                     15<br /><br />With the number of uncommon/common being un-restricted.<br /><br />thoughts?<br /><br />

I think TD did a good job of managing Power Creep last year, and hopefully that will continue. I think there are imaginative ways to make items appealing without Power Creep. Since Jeff gives us a chance to have input to the set, that also gives us the chance to help stop Power Creep.

True Dis!<br /><br />I would speculate that the divergence is real, but not too big of an issue, as people do loan tokens (heck, even the coaches upgrade poor draws) and the key to doing well with most dungeons is teamwork and wisdom.  I think the Commando run this year tested that theory - that with bare minimum of tokens and much more wit - adventurers can survive.  People also form groups that rely on different experiences and expertise, making those dungeon puzzles, much easier to solve.  (case in point, there are some years where I get two rooms solved myself and other years where I still scratch my head and ask - how?)<br /><br />I'd say this (instead of saying TD is a work in progress) - TD has a gaming element that needs a consistent and concerned eye, lest this element get unleashed and do damage to the balance needed in the game.<br /><br />Putting special promotions (such as the PYP) into play may seem to unbalance things slightly, but the greater good of keeping TD around for years outweighs the tip to the scale.  Likewise with consistent feedback and attention to detail - things like the PYP can be built in with the most minimal of impact and maximum benefit.  This also applies to keeping token items interesting and building up some controlled Power Creep to complement 5th level players and possibly even the day when we see multiple CHAR levels beyond just our 3rd and 4th cards.  <br /><br />just my 2 XP!

<br />Balancing the role that tokens play in the big picture of True Dungeon is a tough issue to address. I think AC really is the weakest point overall right now, but not completely "out of control" yet. Being mindful of what tokens are out there, how they stack, and watching out for "breaking" combos is one thing... planning the long-term yearly release strategy for the tokens is another. In the end though, you will end up with experienced players "decked out to the nines" in purps.<br /><br />As much as I don't like imposing restrictions on equipment (as it smacks of the deck-construction restrictions the DCI eventually had to level in Magic: the Gathering tournaments), this could be a possible solution:<br /><br />Player<br />Level      Num of Purps      Num of Reds       Total Rares<br />1-2                1                     9                     10<br />3-4                2                     8                     10<br />5-6                3                     7                     10<br />7-8                4                     8                     12<br />9                   5                     7                     12<br />10+                6                     9                     15<br /><br />With the number of uncommon/common being un-restricted.<br /><br />thoughts?<br />

<br /><br />I hope TD never turns to something like that!  I think players should be able to buy and use what they like.<br /><br />Options like going Commando, or PURP-less or going GREEN...are up to groups to decide to make a specialized run - they can choose to do this if that sounds like fun to them or if that is a challenge they want.  (giving the players options - and not limiting them, is the best thing any game can do!)<br /><br />For TD to limit tokens in any way, really puts a crimp on the game that is not needed and in some aspects hurts it.  (as well as token sales - I would suspect.)<br /><br />G

<br />Options like going Commando, or PURP-less or going GREEN...are up to groups to decide to make a specialized run - they can choose to do this if that sounds like fun to them or if that is a challenge they want.  (giving the players options - and not limiting them, is the best thing any game can do!)<br />

<br /><br />Gary I do agree with you... self-imposed limitations are the better solution. If someone decks themselves out in all ultra-rares and they don't feel "challenged" enough, they have only themselves to blame.<br /> <br />I do imagine TD will get to a point where there will be varying character levels, scenario levels as well as player levels to chose from! (Ok, let's dream big, people. ^_^ )<br />

<br />Balancing the role that tokens play in the big picture of True Dungeon is a tough issue to address. I think AC really is the weakest point overall right now, but not completely "out of control" yet. Being mindful of what tokens are out there, how they stack, and watching out for "breaking" combos is one thing... planning the long-term yearly release strategy for the tokens is another. In the end though, you will end up with experienced players "decked out to the nines" in purps.<br /><br />As much as I don't like imposing restrictions on equipment (as it smacks of the deck-construction restrictions the DCI eventually had to level in Magic: the Gathering tournaments), this could be a possible solution:<br /><br />Player<br />Level      Num of Purps      Num of Reds       Total Rares<br />1-2                1                     9                     10<br />3-4                2                     8                     10<br />5-6                3                     7                     10<br />7-8                4                     8                     12<br />9                   5                     7                     12<br />10+                6                     9                     15<br /><br />With the number of uncommon/common being un-restricted.<br /><br />thoughts?<br />

<br />This really would hurt the mixed group games where Player X,Y, and Z might be more experience but they bring their friend W along who is new to TD, because he is such low level he would not be as uber as his pals.  Or worse yet, new player gets 1 slot, and shows up and the other 7 have great gear and he's gimped and they can't loan him stuff appropriate for his class.  Nah, just this sounds too complex and further highlights the differences between the haves and have nots.