TOPIC: Re: 2008 Token Guide Feedback

This is one of the clearest and most defensible clarifications I have ever seen on this forum. Even if I don't like the answer, it's internally consistent and logical and it settles the matter.

I am with you Dis, I am not a fan of the ruling (especially when it goes against my understanding of to hit modifiers (+"to hit" due to Dex and other perks, and + "to hit" due to the monster having a lower AC).  But perhaps there will be some counter comment.  What also gets me is the fact that the ruling on the field would make Prismatic Spray and Hypnotic pattern not so great.  But I am hoping that Jeff will read my above translation and maybe remove some items from the long list of things Scrolls could be impacted by and choose to take some out (like saves adjustments, AC adjustments, and to hit adjustments) but that is just me.

I see your point. I think it puts the pressure on to increase the wizard's list of canned spells at the start of the adventure, that are not on scrolls, and so not on tokens either. I'm not sure that works well for TD either, but let's see what comes next.

<br />Ah...no.  <br /><br />Basically, you can't improve a scroll with any items, but scroll effects can still be effected by outside forces, of course.  You can't make an Melf's Acid Arrow more powerful or easier to hit directly, but magic around the target will effect it the Arrow.  As will armor worn, smoke in the room, and other things.<br /><br />Thanks for asking a lot of questions.  We will spell it out in the token guide.<br /><br />In a nut shell:  The scrolls work as written.  To do otherwise makes the magic items that effect spells too powerful.<br /><br />

<br /><br />Further clarification so I would propose changing the text on Page 33 to be more like:<br /><br />Scrolls do NOT benefit from any affects from any ITEMS that would affect the damage and to hit bonus of the spell.  This includes  damage/healing boosting items (Ring of Focus, Bracers of Archery), energy changing items (Circlet of Elemental mastery), "to hit" bonus items (Ring of Wizardry, Gloves of Dexterity, Potion of Cats Grace, Gauntlets of Ogre Strength [this would be for the sliding of Shocking Grasp]), and special effect items (Bracelets of the  Zephyr).<br /><br />Scrolls WILL benefit from affects that impact the target's save (Scroll: Prismatic Spray, Scroll: Hypnotic Pattern) or armor class (Tanglefoot bag, Scroll: Summon Insect Swarm, Net), as well as in room effects (Scroll: Bless, Bard Song, Smokesticks)<br /><br />

The more I think about it, perhaps the ruling should read as a list, thus as items get added that should affect scrolls this section can expand, as I am sure there will be new and exciting ways to make casting from scrolls easier.<br /><br />Scrolls can benefit from ONLY the following effects and items:<br />Scroll Prismatic Spray (-2 to Monster Save)<br />Scroll Hypnotic Pattern (-2 to All Monster Saves)<br />Tanglefoot Bag (-2 to Monster AC)<br />Scroll Summon Insect Swarm (-2 to Monster AC)<br />Net (-2 to Monster AC)<br />Scroll Bless (+1 to Hit)<br />Bard Song (various + "to hit", + "to Damage")<br />

Page 53:<br />Wand of Lightning Bolt - No Save DC is noted for the reflex save.  Should be probably DC15 to be on par with the scroll Chain lightning.<br /><br /><br />Page 29:<br />Cloak of Curses - while the token notes the save (Fort DC 12), the text of the description of the cloak should also include it (to be in line with other tokens that note what the save is).<br />So change:<br />...the cloak will deliver a curse to the attacker that, unless a save is made,  forces the ...<br />to<br />...the cloak will deliver a curse to the attacker that, unless a DC 12 Fort save is made,  forces the ...<br />

Bard instrument chaos!!!!<br /><br />Possible Token and Guide and Players Guide disconnect.<br /><br />Text from Masterwork Bard's Instrument (<= 2006): (+2 dam.)<br /><br />Text from Masterwork Bard's Instrument (2007,2008): +2 to damage for all party melee attacks while the bard plays.<br /><br />Text from Widseth's Mystical Lute (2008): +2 to damage for party. Bard can take non-verbal action.<br /><br />Text from Masterwork Bard's Instrument (page 46):<br />Masterwork Bard's  Instrument:...Instead of adding normal +1 to damage, every party member gets to add +2  to their damage.  The damage bonus is applied to ranged weapons. <br /><br />Text from Widseth's Mystical Lute (page 49)<br />....Like the Masterwork Bard's Instrument, the lute adds +2 to the damage effect of the Bard's singing.<br /><br />Text from the Player's guide 3.0 (page 2)<br />..."inspire" the party during combat, resulting in +1 to all combat rolls and a +1 damage bonus to all other party members.....Bards who aquire the Token: Masterwork Bard Instrument...increase the effect of a Bard's Inspiring performance power which adds an additional +1 damage bonus (for a total of +1 to attacks and +2 to damage) to every party member.<br /><br />Ok, so lets see where to start.  <br />First, the MWBI token - it says only melee damage.  As long as I have been playing a bard since 2004 it applied to all types damage as far as I was aware.  Now the Token guide says the damage bonus applies to ranged weapons as well.  How about spells,  scrolls, wands, consumable weapons (think thunderstone)? I believe they were missed in the listing. <br /><br />If the token is right ,then the MWBI in the token guide needs to be corrected, as well as the player guide, as well as lots of other places.  If it is wrong we just ignore the text and fix it in a few years when the Lyre of rage is retired and the MWBI makes a comeback.  Or perhaps that is why Widseth's lute is so kick-arse because its damage bonus applies to all things?<br /><br />Now the text from the Players guide and the Token guide line up.  Except in one area - The players guide says all other party members get the bonus. All other, meaning not the bard.  It is assumed in most cases that the bard is unable to do anything else when singing, but still should benefit from his peformance just like it says later in the section.  Just in case something like the 2008 UR Widseth's lute comes along.<br /><br />Which brings me to the last point.  Widseth's lute while correct in most areas has a bit of incorrect language. <br />"Like the Masterwork Bard's Instrument, the lute adds +2 to the damage effect of the Bard's singing."  <br /><br />I don't think WML adds +2 to the damage (otherwise with WML the damage output is now +2 plus +1 for a total of +3). <br /><br />Perhaps it should read:<br />"Like the Masterwork Bard's Instrument, the lute adds +1 to the damage effect of the Bard's singing."<br />Or if it is different than the MWBI, then that portion needs to be removed.<br /><br />As you can see there is the need for some cleanup and clarification on the Bardic Instrument section.<br /><br />Page 73<br />Question 29: Probably was written to fix the problem of the discrepency, but now that the Lyre of Rage has been introduced with clearer language on the token, this section may also need to be updated.<br /><br />(Last Edit was to add the Page 73 finding)

Holy Water:<br />Currently on page 42 of the token guide which puts it as a potion.  But should it not really be where the Alchemist fire and thunderstone are, under miscellaneous items.  It is not something you drink or apply to your body, holy water is thrown, much like alchemist fire and the thunderstone are.  <br />So perhaps the token Holy water needs to be recategorized to being Miscellaneous.<br />

That makes sense.<br />

Noticed:<br />Older (read wooden) version of Anti-toxin have the header as Item.<br />Current Book on page 42 put this token as a potion.<br />Since the token, as it stands now, does not have the Potion key word on it, perhaps it needs to be moved back to Item or even Miscellaneous, and be treated like the various food-stuffs (orc and dwarven rations) as far as consumption goes.

On the other hand, perhaps it needs to have "Potion" added to the token so it would work with a Belt of Retrieval?

Page 10 - <br />Except for the Ranger,only one weapon may be used at a time.<br /><br />Should be rewritten<br /><br />Except for the Ranger and Monk, only one weapon may be used at a time.