TOPIC: Re: 2008 Token Guide Feedback

Page 7 under Amulets and Rings<br /><br />Either need to add<br />3. A player must declare the use of the Amulet of Wonder during training  and may not exchange the Amulet with any other for the entire adventure.<br /><br />or change #2 to include the Amulet of Wonder.<br /><br />This is due to the wording on the AoW on page 30.  <br />"The amulet must be worn though out the entire adventure  as it is impossible to remove once an adventure has started."<br />

Page  29<br />Cloak of Curses.  Needs text to line up with Scroll:Bane (page 39)<br /><br />The effect from the Cloak of Curses does not stack with the enchantment from Scroll: Bane.<br /><br /><br />Page 42<br />Holy water<br />This attack is affected by Dexterity bonus and items like Bracers of Archery.  <br /><br />Really? I think this is a carry over of how the Bracers of Archery were being interpretted as a dexterity modifying item.    Otherwise Bracers of archery add +2 to damage for holy water..oookaaayyy.<br /><br />Page 46<br />Alchemist Fire<br />As it too is a thrown weapon is should probably benefit the same way as Holy water does with re: to Dexterity bonuses, and if Bracers of Archery also apply to increase its damage it too should reflect that.<br /><br />Page 47<br />Thunderstone<br />Same thing, it too should benefit the same way as Holy water.<br /><br />Page 49<br />Tanglefoot Bag - more a rules question than an error - does this require a particular AC to hit, like all the other thrown items (AC 15) or does it just need to hit the outline of the monster.  If so then that should be noted and benefit the same way as other thrown items from Dexterity bonuses.<br /><br />And when you get to adding the skull of doom please line it up with the other thrown weapons as well.<br /><br />Page 22:<br />Compound Weapons<br />I believe the last sentence needs to be clarified, as the weapon does function in BOTH melee and thrown attacks.<br /><br />Note that any bonus from strength or strength enhancing items (e.g. Gauntlets of Ogre Strength) will not add bonus to attack rolls, but will add bonus to damage, when the weapon is thrown, in melee strength will still apply to bonus to hit.  Any bonus from dexterity or dexterity enchancing items (e.g. Gloves of Dexterity) will add to attack rolls for when the weapon is thrown.

<br />Speaking of controversy, has Jeff or Dave issued a ruling on the Bracelets issue?<br /><br />

<br />No, not yet.  Sorry.  Real life interfering with work on TD...

I don't see any real rush on it. It's half a year before it'll matter again.

I do want to get a resolution to print up in the next version of the guide.<br /><br />Dave

Never do today what you can put off till tomorrow.<br /><br /><br />Tomorrow never comes.

<br />Shocking Grasp - Token vs. Guide vs. DM<br />The guide says must be slid to Hit AC-15, token does not (unlike the Scroll of Scorching Ray).<br />During our Run, I asked a DM and he said it does not require a slide.<br />So which is it, slide (and thus future reprints should include this), or no slide (and as such the guide needs to be corrected).<br /><br />Ring of Wizardry - does it work on spells only, or spells and scrolls?  If it is spells only it should probably say Spells Only, much like the wording on the Ring of Focus  which says "It does not apply to scrolls or other artifacts."  Otherwise it should have wording that makes it clear that scrolls can benefit from this item.<br />

<br /><br />Two things to note here.<br /><br />Shocking Grasp:  <br />The Wooden Shocking Grasp tokens do not indicate the need for a slide.  The DM would have to have memorized the Token Guide (which, IMO, they should make an attempt to do) in order to handle the wooden SG the way the token guide indicates, which is the need for a AC 15 slide.<br />In other words, per the token guide, all Shocking Grasps (wooden or chippie) require the AC 15 slide.  It's a matter of DM and Coach training (people need ot read the guides and, it can be difficult to retain all that one reads).<br /><br /><br />Ring of Wizardry: <br /><br />From the v7.0 Token Guide: <br />Ring of Wizardry: This ring, usable by a Wizard only, increases a Wizard's prowess when casting a spell that requires a to hit slide to be made.  This ring adds +2 damage dealt by these spells, and any natural "20" will do double the indicated damage (and +4 more damage since the normal +2 to damage is also doubled.<br /><br />Apparently, that text was scrapped (whether intentionally or accidently) for the <br />text found on the token: <br />+2 to hit with spells requiring slides - double damage on a natural "20"<br /><br /><br />Defining "Spells:"   <br />Let's go back to the "old school" D&D for a moment.  Spells are spells, whether memorized or in the form of a scroll.<br />Keeping that in mind, unless the text states "memorized" or "scroll," I assume the word "spell" to mean either/both.<br /><br />As neither the ring nor the token guide state whether the ring affects spells from memorization or scrolls, but simply states "spells," IMO, the ring should affect both spells cast from memory and from scrolls.<br /><br /><br /> The bigger question is, what +to hit and + to damage bonuses affect which spells? <br /><br />Token Guide v7.0<br />Page 33, under the "Scrolls:" heading: <br />Scrolls that cause a ranged weapon to be created and hurled toward an enemy (specifically Melf's Acid Arrow and Flame Arrow) fall under the same rules as ranged weapons in combat.<br />I think this sentance pretty much sums up the answer as it should relate to all the itmes I list below.<br /><br />Melf's Acid Arrow:  This ragned attack spell conjures and fires an arrow that causes 8 points of acid damage to an enemy of the caster's choice if the caster can hit AC 15 or better.  If the caster fails to hit AC 15, the spell fails.  Bracers of Archery and Dexterity bonuses apply to the attempt.<br /><br />Flame Arrow:  This ranged attack does 14 points of fire damage to one creature of the caster's choice provided the caster hits an AC 15 or better.  This spell is not augmented by the Wizard's skills test, however dexterity bonuses, such as that from Bracers of Archery, do apply.<br /><br />Bless:  This spell provides +1 to the entire group's to-hit bonus until the group moves to the next room.  This includes ranged weapons.  IMO, this means this should include Melf's Acid Arrow and Flame Strike (per the text on page 33).<br /><br />Bard's Song:  during the con, I asked for a ruling on this and the answer was, "no, the Bard's Song (+ to hit and + to damage) does not affect Spells."<br />Per the text on page 33, however, it would appear that any spell falling under the same rules as ranged weapons in combat, should receive these bonuses.  IMO, this means this should include Melf's Acid Arrow and Flame Strike (per the text on page 33).<br /><br /><br /><br />Summurization:  (my opinion and understanding...would need official ruling/confirmation from a Director)<br />Spells (wether cast from memory or a scroll) "that cause a ranged weapon to be created and hurled toward an enemy (specifically Melf's Acid Arrow and Flame Arrow) fall under the same rules as ranged weapons in combat."<br />As such, such spells would be affected by:  Bard's Song, Bless, Dexterity, and Bracers of Archery.<br /><br /><br />With the Ring of Wizardry in play:<br />Spells not affected by the rules of ranged weapons combat:  +2 to Hit, double damage on a Natural 20  (AC 13 for many of the spells, such as Shocking Grasp and Scorching Ray!)<br /><br />Spells affected by the rules of ranged weapons:  (Possibly Bonuses)<br />  +2 to hit from Ring of Wizardry<br />  +1 to hit and +1 to Damage from Bard's Song (or +1 to hit and +2 to Damage with Masterwork Bard's Instrument or Widseth's Lute)<br />  +1 to hit from Bless<br />  +1 to hit from Gloves of Dexterity<br />  +2 to damage from Bracers of Archery<br /> 

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for a whoping potential of +5 to hit and +4 to damage (not including any Dexterity bonus that a Bard might have (don't think they have any, but thought I'd note the exception just in case)<br /><br /><br />

<br />Spells affected by the rules of ranged weapons:  (Possibly Bonuses)<br />  +2 to hit from Ring of Wizardry<br />  +1 to hit and +1 to Damage from Bard's Song (or +1 to hit and +2 to Damage with Masterwork Bard's Instrument or Widseth's Lute)<br />  +1 to hit from Bless<br />  +1 to hit from Gloves of Dexterity<br />  +2 to damage from Bracers of Archery<br /> 

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for a whoping potential of +5 to hit and +4 to damage (not including any Dexterity bonus that a Bard might have (don't think they have any, but thought I'd note the exception just in case)<br />

<br /><br />You forgot the Ring of Focus for yet another +1 Damage for a possible +5/+5   Oh and don't forget if you drink a potion of cats grace while using a belt of retrieval you are really +7/+5.  But the guide is inconsistent on the Bracers of Archery which is what I am pointing out in earlier posts, but I am hoping not to turn this thread into a debate thread, but rather stay focused on areas that need to be corrected based on inconsistency.<br /><br />As for scroll:  Shocking Grasp - As much as I would love to ensure every player that comes to TD has read the guide and knows how it all works, they don't.  We have many players who do not read the guide and so the onus falls on the DMs, who already have enough going on, but if its clearly on the token then it makes it very clear to all involved.  That's all I am suggesting, that or remove the ruling.    Anyway, looking forward to the next version for review.

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<br />Spells affected by the rules of ranged weapons:  (Possibly Bonuses)<br />  +2 to hit from Ring of Wizardry<br />  +1 to hit and +1 to Damage from Bard's Song (or +1 to hit and +2 to Damage with Masterwork Bard's Instrument or Widseth's Lute)<br />  +1 to hit from Bless<br />  +1 to hit from Gloves of Dexterity<br />  +2 to damage from Bracers of Archery<br /> 

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for a whoping potential of +5 to hit and +4 to damage (not including any Dexterity bonus that a Bard might have (don't think they have any, but thought I'd note the exception just in case)<br />

<br /><br />You forgot the Ring of Focus for yet another +1 Damage for a possible +5/+5   Oh and don't forget if you drink a potion of cats grace while using a belt of retrieval you are really +7/+5.  But the guide is inconsistent on the Bracers of Archery which is what I am pointing out in earlier pots, but I am hoping not to turn this thread into a debate thread, but rather stay focused on areas that need to be corrected based on inconsistency.<br /><br />As for scroll:  Shocking Grasp - As much as I would love to ensure every player that comes to TD has read the guide and knows how it all works, they don't.  We have many players who do not read the guide and so the onus falls on the DMs, who already have enough going on, but if its clearly on the token then it makes it very clear to all involved.  That's all I am suggesting, that or remove the ruling.    Anyway, looking forward to the next version for review.<br />

<br /><br />Thank you for pointing those out.<br />I was using a belt of retrieval with Cat's grace, for exactly that reason.  Great point.<br />As for the Ring of Focus...well, I find it to be inferior to many of my other options (sorry Douglas!), so it tends to slip my mind...but good point.<br /><br />Shocking Grasp:  yeah; want I was trying to say without saying it is, I'm not sure every DM reads the guide either.  Even if they did, it can be tough to recall all of the information in there. <br />My goodness; I now see your point.  Out of all of the new chippies that say things like "AC 15 to hit," the Shocking Graps token is lacking that very important bit of detail.  Yes; I would agree that this should be added to the token's face.<br />I seem to remember having this delima as a DM...knowing that, with the new tokens, we were told "what's printed on the token trumps the guide," and yet not seeing anything about needing a "to-hit slide" on the token's face.  I questioned whether or not it really did require a slide.  Especially when compared to Burning Hands, which does an automatic 5 HP of damage on up to two monsters (at the caster's choice).  Seeing as how the Shocking Grasp is only one point better (6 HP of damage) and can only be aimed at one target, I would say that one or the other of the two spells needs to change.  Either Shocking Grasp should not have an AC Slide, or Burning Hands Should so they are both the same in that regards.<br />Now I remember...I had the same concerns as a DM and Player.  Thank you for pointing it out.  Hope we hear a ruling and see an update to the guilde and/or token faces.<br /><br />

I don't consider "spells" to include "scrolls" - I'm sure next issue of the Guide will clarify.<br />

Page 25<br />+1 Tower Shield in the Table of who can use it. Needs to be formatted Purple as the rest of the URs in the table.<br /><br />Same thing on Page 27

YippEEE - Questions answered!<br /><br />

<br />Good questions.  Easy answer.<br /><br />Nothing effects scrolls - neither the "to hit" nor the damage.  Scrolls are magical energy long ago cast into the parchment of the scroll, so it is too late to effect that energy with any kind of magic item to enhance it.  The magic has been cast already -- all the reader does is to release the energy by reading it.<br /><br />So, don't fret about questions about scrolls.  The answer is always "no it does not".  It is much easier this way.<br /><br />Thanks for bringing this up!<br />

<br /><br />So what does that mean.<br />First no scroll should be modified by anything, no dex bonuses, no spells bonues, no item bonuses, no in game effect (like bard song or cleric casting bless).  So what does this mean.<br /><br />Page 33: Strike the last paragraph.  Melf's acid arrow and flame arrow are now Scrolls/Spells that require slide of AC 15 to hit.<br /><br />Probably add a paragraph that reads:<br /><br />Scrolls do NOT benefit from any affects from anything.  This includes saving throw reduction items (Scroll: Hypnotic Pattern, Scroll: Prismatic Spray), damage/healing boosting items (Ring of Focus, Bracers of Archery, Bard Song), energy changing items (Circlet of Elemental Mastery), "to hit" bonus items (Ring of Wizardry, Gloves of Dexterity, Potion of Cats Grace, Bard Song, Scroll: Bless, Gauntlets of Ogre Power), reduced armor class of monster caused by items(Tanglefoot Bag, Net, Scroll: Summon Insects), and special effect items (Bracelets of Zephyr).<br /><br />Page 35: Remove the last Sentence from Melf's Acid Arrow<br />Page 37: Remove the last sentence from Flame Arrow<br />Page 37: Remove the last sentence from Scorching Ray<br />