TOPIC: Mystic Staves are now magical

Does that mean that Perfectwork Ammo (such as the perfectwork arrow) is magic, since it is not masterwork and has +damage on the token?

I now understand why you wanted the sentence now that I see the layout in the PHB. Perhaps something like this?

A weapon is magical unless it is Silver, alchemical, masterwork, or contains only energy damage listed on the token.

Do we have many / any common and uncommon magical items? It might be easier to handle masterwork, perfect work, and whatever-new-work token comes up by saying common and uncommon ammo is not magical. Or maybe common and uncommon stuff is always not magical.

Endgame wrote: Does that mean that Perfectwork Ammo (such as the perfectwork arrow) is magic, since it is not masterwork and has +damage on the token?

Let's just say that "perfectwork" is a masterwork masterwork as it is intended to be non-magical. I hate having to do another carve-out for one ^%$# token. 😠

Endgame wrote: Perhaps something like this?
A weapon is magical unless it is Silver, alchemical, masterwork, or contains only energy damage listed on the token.

Making the default state for a weapon be magical concerns me greatly. I think it's better/safer to make the default state be non-magical and to list the things that elevate a weapon to a magical "apotheosis".

I don't understand why all those common Bliss, Dwarven, Elven, and Iron weapons (including Crude Iron Rod) are considered magical but the Silver sickle isn't.

If anything, the Sickle should be magical and the rest not because it's the Sickle that stands out beneficially against its brethren.

But if we're saying the +3 vs type makes something magical, why do we need to make the Sickle an exception? Why shouldn't it be magical? Seems to me making it magical clears up 3-4 headaches, for purposes of explanations, DM memory, PHB space, etc. It makes a practical, and lore, explanation for why it's different from the nonmagical silver weapons.

Just being able to consistently say, "ignore the token name, look for the +X" or "it's the +X that makes a token magical" with fewer exceptions, especially one relating to a single token.

Making the Silver Sickle magical, thanks to the wording of the Alchemical tokens, makes it as easy as saying, "Mystic staves and any token with a +X number on it are magical." (With a clarification of + to hit or damage, in case of weapons that give +AC or saves or something and need to be nonmagical for some reason)

making all commons and uncommons mundane would probably cover a number of the cases. A few URs like Maul of the Titans prevent saying all UR+ are magical

I guess the table helps me understand better, but it also strikes me as needlessly complicated.

I'd simplify and make the rule:

A weapon or ammunition is magical if:

A. It has a +X in its name.
B. It includes the phrase "+X damage" on its face
C. It includes the phrase "+X focus" on its face
D. It includes the phrase "X pts damage" on its face
E. It has "Mystic Staff" in its name
(F. Maybe there is another rule or two here that needs to be added - but this rule should never say "but" or "except" - it should just add to the list of properties that make something magical.)

This would make common Silver Sickle (+3 damage to lycanthropes) magical. I always thought this item was magical. But if it's not, turning it magical is a small price to pay for simplifying the rules. I doubt there are any important consequences to TD if a token like Silver Sickle is magical or not.

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm confused at what you're getting at here.

Masterwork is just a really well-crafted item. It has no magical energy bound into it.
• The Mona Lisa is a masterwork painting.
• Michelangelo's David is a masterwork statue.
Neither one of those are magical (in a literal sense), they're just exceptionally well made.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Can a token with the word "Masterwork" in its title be nonmagical?

Yes. More specifically, a weapon or ammo token with the word "masterwork" in its title is, by definition, non-magical.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Can a token with the word "Masterwork" in its title be magical?

No. Certainly no more so than the Mona Lisa would be referred to as a canvas. Sure, canvas is part of the Mona Lisa, but that canvas has been used to make something much more special.

Matthew Hayward wrote: If I tell you "I have a token, and it's got the word "Masterwork" in it's name." you can't conclude definitively if that token is magical or not. Right?

Assuming you're referring to a weapon or ammo, incorrect.

Matthew Hayward wrote: If it's incorrect, I'd like to know which of these statements is false:

Statement 1: A token with the word "Masterwork" in its title could be magical.

false

Matthew Hayward wrote: Statement 2: A token with the word "Masterwork" in its title could be nonmagical.

Technically true, but misleading. A weapon or ammo token with "masterwork" in its name IS non-magical.

Think of a masterwork weapon as a canine zygote and a puppy as a magical weapon. Sure, every puppy starts off as a zygote, but at some point it becomes something much more. (Much more adorable! 🤗) If you're holding a puppy and someone comments on the cute little zygote in your arms, you're going to look at that person quizzically. Once a masterwork weapon/ammo goes through the process of becoming fully enchanted, it's no longer referred to as masterwork, it's referred to as magical.

Druegar wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm confused at what you're getting at here.

Masterwork is just a really well-crafted item. It has no magical energy bound into it.
• The Mona Lisa is a masterwork painting.
• Michelangelo's David is a masterwork statue.
Neither one of those are magical (in a literal sense), they're just exceptionally well made.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Can a token with the word "Masterwork" in its title be nonmagical?

Yes. More specifically, a weapon or ammo token with the word "masterwork" in its title is, by definition, non-magical.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Can a token with the word "Masterwork" in its title be magical?

No. Certainly no more so than the Mona Lisa would be referred to as a canvas. Sure, canvas is part of the Mona Lisa, but that canvas has been used to make something much more special.

Matthew Hayward wrote: If I tell you "I have a token, and it's got the word "Masterwork" in it's name." you can't conclude definitively if that token is magical or not. Right?

Assuming you're referring to a weapon or ammo, incorrect.

Matthew Hayward wrote: If it's incorrect, I'd like to know which of these statements is false:

Statement 1: A token with the word "Masterwork" in its title could be magical.

false

Matthew Hayward wrote: Statement 2: A token with the word "Masterwork" in its title could be nonmagical.

Technically true, but misleading. A weapon or ammo token with "masterwork" in its name IS non-magical.

Think of a masterwork weapon as a canine zygote and a puppy as a magical weapon. Sure, every puppy starts off as a zygote, but at some point it becomes something much more. (Much more adorable! 🤗) If you're holding a puppy and someone comments on the cute little zygote in your arms, you're going to look at that person quizzically. Once a masterwork weapon/ammo goes through the process of becoming fully enchanted, it's no longer referred to as masterwork, it's referred to as magical.

Got it - sorry for making you write this all out - I thought I deleted my post after thinking about it a bit more but I guess I caught you with it.

So by this information Surturs Arrow ( C ), Arrow of Baldurbane ( UC ) and Arrow of Thors Gift are all Magical, and the 2023 Perfectwork Arrow is non magical? Or are all 4 non magical since + x does not appear in the tokens name such as + 3 Ammo of alteration which is 100% magical ?

This thread makes my head hurt. And the chart in the PHB is nice but I still don't see the average player being able to easily understand what's magical and what's not. Not sure how to clarify it more though.

Crazy question - how often does needing magical weapons come up? Instead of it being complicated, could the rules be changed to dramatically simplify magic vs mundane?

What if:
Mundane weapons are commons, uncommons, alchemitical, and Rares that not include a + in the title. Magic weapons are all UR, relic, and legendary, mystic staves, rares that include + hit, and focus rares.

What game effects that are currently happening need to change?

I think what might be making things confusing for people is that Silver and Masterwork pretty heavily lead things off in the header for the section, even though those are not terms that determine if a weapon is magical.

How about:
If a weapon has any kind of + To Hit, + Damage, or X Damage printed on the token, or is a Mystic Staff, it counts as "magical,” EXCEPT if it is Masterwork. "Mundane" (no +X in the title) Silver weapons/ammunition are not Magical.