TOPIC: +2 Assassin's Crossbow

I think the only question on a rerf is if it is being reprinted. It really should be reprinted so it isn’t an “us and them” scenario where amazing weapons are only available to vets. If reprinted, my suggestion for the nightshade change fixes the nerf and makes DMing mire easy. In my build, for example, a crit would go from 195 min dmg down to about 170 (for a 17-19). That feels fair and puts rogue a peg slightly below wizard on damage.

An even more interesting idea would be a reprint that makes a nat 20 crit as a x4 but no other benefit (ie no nightshade crit combined into it.) That would feel like a huge boom when it hits

I would be in favor of a crossbow reprint.

I would be ok with changing the burst marker on nightshades to just a x3 crit to simplify DMing, but I am also indifferent to this change.

Personal opinion, I like the rogue being able to score a big crit, but I view rogues more as burst assassins then as classic thief architypes.

OK, thanks all, it seems like at the least it's not generally considered game breaking. I'd be fine with a straight reprint at some point now that Nightshade's +2 Throwing Dagger has rotated out of PYP, or alternatively just making a new Legendary weapon that's on par with it for Rogues, since at the moment Assassin's Crossbow may as well be considered a Rogue Legendary weapon in terms of availability and power level anyway.

The idea that is considered on power level with legendaries suggests to me it should not be reprinted as a UR.

A close but not the quite the same UR replacement (maybe only does triple damage on a natural 20, instead of any crit) would be preferable. Being up front, I am in favor of a nerf, but also realize that TD hasn’t made too many errata over the years, and think it’s fair to not want to do more. But we also then shouldn’t flood the market with a reprint that performs certainly higher above its rarity class.

I think it should be reprinted with a x3 crit on a natural 20 only (and a trade in offered for the out of print and no longer usable token, similar to how other problematic URs have been handled). I also think a new ranged legendary should be in the 2025 set that is rogue friendly. I really liked where they were going with the bow that allowed +dex to damage last year and was sad to see it get cut.

An out of print UR should not be a best in slot weapon - or at least not for an extended period of time.

If x3 damage on crit is a problem with this (otherwise mediocre) weapon, wouldn't that ability be a problem no matter where it shows up?

kurtreznor wrote: If x3 damage on crit is a problem with this (otherwise mediocre) weapon, wouldn't that ability be a problem no matter where it shows up?

The problem is a 3x crit combined with Raphael’s 17+ crit range twice a room.

Making the bonus damage only trigger on a natural 20 would pretty much be the same as getting rid of the token entirely - it's not like Captain's Mug appears in many builds. We already have a close but not quite the same replacement in Nightshade's +2 Throwing Dagger, so I'd strongly expect builds would just switch to the dagger instead which still deals a high amount of damage and works with expanded crit ranges.

If it's not causing balance issues then I don't really mind the crossbow being similar to a Legendary token as long as people have access to it, i.e. a reprint at some point. It's not like Rogues can equip Io's, after all, and Thor's isn't really that good a token for Rogues (low STR, already have expanded crit range, not compatible with Sneak Attack without equipping a subpar token).

Matthew Hayward wrote:

kurtreznor wrote: If x3 damage on crit is a problem with this (otherwise mediocre) weapon, wouldn't that ability be a problem no matter where it shows up?

The problem is a 3x crit combined with Raphael’s 17+ crit range twice a room.

So, 3x damage on a crit isn't actually the problem. So, let's stop trying to nerf this weapon. The weapon isn't what is over-powered, it happens to be the best option to abuse an expanded crit with tons of damage bonuses.

Maybe the problem is equipping damage bonuses in nearly every slot, to the detriment of all other stats? Maybe that is what needs fixed?

kurtreznor wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

kurtreznor wrote: If x3 damage on crit is a problem with this (otherwise mediocre) weapon, wouldn't that ability be a problem no matter where it shows up?

The problem is a 3x crit combined with Raphael’s 17+ crit range twice a room.

So, 3x damage on a crit isn't actually the problem. So, let's stop trying to nerf this weapon. The weapon isn't what is over-powered, it happens to be the best option to abuse an expanded crit with tons of damage bonuses.

Maybe the problem is equipping damage bonuses in nearly every slot, to the detriment of all other stats? Maybe that is what needs fixed?

X3 damage that can be combined with a 17-20 threat range makes it superior, as a UR, to every ranged weapon in the game at NM+ difficulty. It was likely an unintentional impact of raphel’s.

Keep in mind, I abuse the heck out of this. There is no weapon combination close to this damage output for rogues (without sacrificing stats or saves the crossbow wielders have) and it makes the few players with the crossbow in a “haves” versus “have nots.”

With it, in-person, Rogue is top 3 for overall damage. Without it. Rogue drops to the bottom half in overall damage, VTD intentionally makes 17 much harder to hit than they are live so it isn’t as much an issue there.

So - that leaves it with a need for a reprint so new players can have comparable builds to vets. The question is, is it ok for rogue to only be out-damaged by only monks and (sometimes) rangers with the same legendary neck slot filled but only a UR as a weapon (if monks and rangers are using URs, the rogue moves to first in overall damage.) I am ok with that but I can see others disagreeing.

I am also ok having my precious crossbow nerfed if it helps game balance. I’ll miss 200+ point crits but just like clerics miss not healing the entire party to full with one spell, I’ll get used to it.

Fred K wrote:
Keep in mind, I abuse the heck out of this. There is no weapon combination close to this damage output for rogues (without sacrificing stats or saves the crossbow wielders have) and it makes the few players with the crossbow in a “haves” versus “have nots.”

With it, in-person, Rogue is top 3 for overall damage.

It's probably open to interpretation whether Rogues are in the top 3 damage dealers, since I've seen spellcasters hitting for over 200 damage in VTD runs, Barbarian is lower on non-crit damage but can can guarantee crits while the Rogue needs to slide them and not be bumped off them, and it's very difficult to measure how much value the Bard adds to the party by causing attacks to hit which would otherwise have missed.

Rogues can also only do this for 2 rounds per combat. In the example you gave (+55 ranged dmg for sneak attacks doing 80-90 dmg total, or 195-220 on a crit), if you hit crits on both Sneak Attacks then this is an average of 195-220 damage per round. Adding a third round with no crit (as there's no expanded crit range outside Sneak Attack) drops this average to 157-177 damage per round, and this will continue keep dropping lower and lower if a crit is missed or the combat lasts for more rounds.

BeLinda Mathie wrote: I’m reasonably sure that I’ve shared my opinion on this before, so I’ll keep it short.

The +2 Assassin’s Crossbow is fine.

It does not “need” a nerf.

Rationale: A rogue using this crossbow needs to devote one eye slot to Lenses of Agility or Lenses of Vital Insight in order to sneak attack with a ranged weapon. The bow is only +2 to hit, meaning that the rogue is giving up a to-hit bonus of +2 from Io’s or +3 from Thor’s (thrown). Rogues can sneak attack a maximum of 2 times per combat. The triple crit feature doesn’t apply to the sneak attack damage bonus (15/20), just weapon damage, base damage, and bardsong damage (if applicable). Finally, my response to “what if the rogue is using Raphiel’s and could trigger the triple crit on 17-20, not just 20” is “a rogue wearing a legendary neck is probably wearing a lot of other orange/green tokens, and I’m just not that worried that a NM/Epic player has a chance to do 100-150 damage in up to two rounds each combat when NM/Epic monks do that much damage almost every round.”

I agree with this.
My experience as a Grind DM, is that a Rogue with Assassin's Crossbow and Raphiel's Necklace gets great bang for their buck, but is still eclipsed by Monk regularly, and often by Wizard (when they've got a Cleric-battery-pack keeping their MEC powered.) I don't think the token is over-powered, considering that it requires a Legendary to get those 2-Sneaks-Per-Combat, and even then it's only twice, not unlimited like other classes' weapons.