TOPIC: Ethics of Selling/Buying Medallions of Nobility

Incognito wrote:

Where was there harassment, demonization as "horrible people," or character assassination?

From the very first post, I clearly stated that Gaming Etc. did not do anything illegal. [/quote]

However, I do disagree with the selling of Medallions of Nobility (and Cogwind Medallions) and I do think it is unethical. Am I not allowed to have a civilized discussion about the said ethics/morals of it?[/quote]

Just an FYI, I am commenting on several posts and not just yours. My bad if every one of my point's direction ]was not cited. Nothing personal to anyone, and for the record I agree with most of your base premise. I just think it's not worth the kerfuffle in this instance.

In regards to harassment, the comment you made about the MoN they were selling was loud enough to be heard. Based on the reaction and from their view, it obviously was adversarial enough in nature for them to start a heated argument with you. Bad mouthing someones business right in front of them and their customers is something I see that as a form or harassment. I know that was not your intent at all, you are stand up guy. But see it from their perspective, rudely commenting in an more intimate setting like that is kind of disrespectful to the proprietor especially if you were pretty loud about it. You might not have been, I was not there, nor will I accuse you of being obnoxious. I am going off what has been said in the thread, they are the facts at hand. I'm also basing some of my comments on my actual dealings with them.

In regards to Horrible people, read through some of the thread's comments, it's a bit much.

You absolutely said it was not illegal from the get go. That comment was from Brad, who I quoted, referred to it as a crime. That's what I was calling out as stretching it.

Mongo wrote: The medallion hasn't ever appeared to buy for my brother or I when we have tried to order items... or transmute. We both are level six as shown when we log on...

Is there something we need to do so the token becomes addable?

I had the exact same problem. I sent an email to the address listed on the contact page and they told me to request the token using the note field when I place my next token/transmute order.

I would recommend anyone having the issue send an email. It might get someone to take a look at why it is broken.

Brad Mortensen wrote: @JACKOFTRADZE - I said "crime" because you're claiming something of material and monetary value (a treasure chip). It's more than cheating; it's stealing. Yes, it's a petty crime and unlikely to result in a call to the cops, let alone jail time, but it is a crime nonetheless. That is indisputable.

Using a fake build on an app to claim undeserved combat bonuses is cheating, and not a crime.

But BC is right, it's not the worst thing. The crimes at GHC of claiming CoA treasure from multiple simultaneous runs were much worse, but it's only a matter of degree. It's all theft.

(I appreciate the spirited debate, again nothing personal.)

You are actually making my point on how this is not a crime. If someone legally purchased that Medallion Token for $40 from Gaming Store Inc. that the official TD rules say is used as proof of 6th Level to get that extra chip, it is not stealing. It is cheating...like the APP example that you stated. It's totally skirting the game rules of XP because it currently only requires to see that Token. The only difference in this case is that they will have the physical proof needed (that they paid for) to go one step further. If they are that desperate and hungry for 1 more chip per run to pay for it, have at it.

I totally find unethical in terms of what it represents within the game and I do not approve at all. That said, if out of 500 players 3-5 go that route for +1 Chip per run, does it really matter? It will take them awhile to get a ROI on that $40 unless they get real lucky.

At least whoever buys it will go on the actual runs unlike the Origins Avarice crooks.

I thought the Avarice issue was fixed before Origins?

I pulled out all of my TE's there for them...

Mongo wrote: I thought the Avarice issue was fixed before Origins?

I pulled out all of my TE's there for them...

Post Origins, yes it was fixed by showing all of our TE's in the training room.

All of this back and forth is about Gaming Store Inc selling a Medallion of Nobility Token for $40 at their GC booth and the nature/ethics of having a non 6th level player get the 1 chip bonus without truly earning it. The main debate is if they bought the token is it cheating or stealing........

The real burning question and mystery in TD is about finding the purpose of (or use for) the 10ft Pole.

JACKOFTRADZE wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: @JACKOFTRADZE - I said "crime" because you're claiming something of material and monetary value (a treasure chip). It's more than cheating; it's stealing. Yes, it's a petty crime and unlikely to result in a call to the cops, let alone jail time, but it is a crime nonetheless. That is indisputable.

Using a fake build on an app to claim undeserved combat bonuses is cheating, and not a crime.

But BC is right, it's not the worst thing. The crimes at GHC of claiming CoA treasure from multiple simultaneous runs were much worse, but it's only a matter of degree. It's all theft.

(I appreciate the spirited debate, again nothing personal.)

You are actually making my point on how this is not a crime. If someone legally purchased that Medallion Token for $40 from Gaming Store Inc. that the official TD rules say is used as proof of 6th Level to get that extra chip, it is not stealing. It is cheating...like the APP example that you stated. It's totally skirting the game rules of XP because it currently only requires to see that Token. The only difference in this case is that they will have the physical proof needed (that they paid for) to go one step further. If they are that desperate and hungry for 1 more chip per run to pay for it, have at it.

I totally find unethical in terms of what it represents within the game and I do not approve at all. That said, if out of 500 players 3-5 go that route for +1 Chip per run, does it really matter? It will take them awhile to get a ROI on that $40 unless they get real lucky.

At least whoever buys it for it will go on the actual runs unlike the Origins Avarice crooks.

You're confusing the enforcement of the rule with the rule.

The extra treasure chip goes to 6th level players.

Official rules accept the Medallion of Nobility as evidence (not proof) that a player is 6th level.

A player who owns and presents a Medallion of Nobility is NOT entitled to an extra treasure chip.

A player who presents a Medallion of Nobility and is not a 6th level player, but claims to be, is no different than someone dipping their hand in the treasure box while no one is looking and taking a token.

No one would call the second thing "cheating" and not "stealing."

Matthew Hayward wrote: You're confusing the enforcement of the rule with the rule.

The extra treasure chip goes to 6th level players.

Official rules accept the Medallion of Nobility as evidence (not proof) that a player is 6th level.

A player who owns and presents a Medallion of Nobility is NOT entitled to an extra treasure chip.

A player who presents a Medallion of Nobility and is not a 6th level player, but claims to be, is no different than someone dipping their hand in the treasure box while no one is looking and taking a token.

No one would call the second thing "cheating" and not "stealing."

There is no confusion, but a lot of semantics. Everything you stated is an obvious given, there no disagreement on what the actual rules are. This whole thread is based on the assumption that whoever purchases the Medallion Token will show it "as proof" that they are 6th level to get the chip. Yes, it's cheating, BS and unethical, no one here disagrees with that. In the end, I think this is a classic case of a Mole Hill being turned into a Mountain.

I was also just pointing out a contradiction, that calling it a "crime" is going a little overboard and lambasting Gaming Store Inc. for unethical practices is a bit much. We can disagree on this agreeably. It's cool.

No one answered my question from earlier, since this thread is all about ethics and morality: Is it immoral or stealing if sellers raise prices 20%-30% during GC then lower immediately after to the prior prices?

JACKOFTRADZE wrote: No one answered my question from earlier, since this thread is all about ethics and morality: Is it immoral or stealing if sellers raise prices 20%-30% during GC then lower immediately after to the prior prices?

Well, I asked a ton of questions that no one answered either. Particularly about moral culpability if a third party uses something you sold them.

As to your question, I would say it is the same answer as whether Uber's surge pricing is immoral or stealing. You could also draw analogies to airline flight prices that fluctuate quite a bit.

Incognito wrote:

JACKOFTRADZE wrote: No one answered my question from earlier, since this thread is all about ethics and morality: Is it immoral or stealing if sellers raise prices 20%-30% during GC then lower immediately after to the prior prices?

Well, I asked a ton of questions that no one answered either. Particularly about moral culpability if a third party uses something you sold them.

As to your question, I would say it is the same answer as whether Uber's surge pricing is immoral or stealing.

Again, I agree with you position. I think Gaming Store Inc is great, so I just asked to see from their perspective. I just would not sweat it. It's not an epidemic. Unfortunately, not everyone is honest and you cannot control human nature. Not too long ago there was a similar thread on noobs being preyed on by experienced players. Every injustice cannot be fought.

The latter is supply/demand of the market but is it immoral? (No answer needed it;s subjective...like this situation) I would say it's not stealing because no one is forcing you to buy what your not willing to pay for something. My subliminal point in all of my posts was the stones/glass house rule.

On another note, you killed it on Grind this year! All that was missing was props. If it that good at GHC I would run it twice. I never run Grind twice. Great job, don't let cheaters worry you bro!

JACKOFTRADZE wrote: I was also just pointing out a contradiction, that calling it a "crime" is going a little overboard...

No, it's not. It's 100% accurate.

Shoplifting is a crime, whether you steal a computer or a postcard.

Stealing treasure chips is a crime, whether you grab it from the box and sprint for the door, or palm an extra as you dip in, or swear that Jeff said you could have one, or counterfeit a CoA, or claim to be level 6 using someone else's MoN as evidence. Four of those examples are EXACTLY THE SAME, and the fifth is just a matter of degree. (At least the "grab and dash" scenario shows some guts.)

It's not just "cheating." That's when you break the rules for an unfair game advantage. Stealing things of monetary value is theft. It IS a crime. There is zero moral ambiguity there. So please don't try to pass it off as the same thing as "forgetting" to take push damage.

But I don't think anyone is advocating a Les Miserables treatment of MoN abusers.

JACKOFTRADZE wrote: Bad mouthing someones business right in front of them and their customers is something I see that as a form or harassment.

It might be a little quibbling on my part but why is publicly stating an opinion (even a rude one) considered harassment?

To me at any rate harassment always implied behavior that persisted over time.

JACKOFTRADZE wrote: No one answered my question from earlier, since this thread is all about ethics and morality: Is it immoral or stealing if sellers raise prices 20%-30% during GC then lower immediately after to the prior prices?

Its not stealing, if they own an item they can sell it at any price they want. That has nothing to do with the morality of raising the price during the show (which for the record yes I consider unethical)

Mongo wrote: The medallion hasn't ever appeared to buy for my brother or I when we have tried to order items... or transmute. We both are level six as shown when we log on...

Is there something we need to do so the token becomes addable?

I ordered mine a couple years back with a token order and it showed up right away. If they aren't showing up maybe you should ask Jeff? On a side note for the other rewards for 7th, 8th, and 9th level how do we go about acquiring those?