TOPIC: Elixer of Life = Overpriced

Henwy,<br />  I understand your point. Here's why I think that it is not so much overpriced, for me:<br />1) If my wife croaks in the dungeon, and I have one to use, I will definitely use it, as it is far more important to have her have fun(and indirectly support me in going to gencon) than to have any particular tokens<br />2) I have  just about everyone red that I might need to near max both my wife and myself. There's only three tokens right now that I am actively looking for(among the reds anyways): healing potions, wands, and the elixir. As the ultimate healing, I don't mind that it's worth a lot, in fact, I prefer it.<br />3) Having lots of value, and something collectors want to have, means that I can use it to trade even with serious collectors.

Well, in the end it's always going to be worth different amounts to different people, and it'll always be worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for it. There has to also be some sort of objective standard for things though is what I'm saying and on that standard, it would seem that 5 pots of CLW would come in far more handy in general. Now, I know that the reason for the price jump is because some heavy tokened hoarders out there value it...and I also hoard certain items for the idea of future trade. The difference is I tend to hoard pure utility items. Things that aren't one-shots and come into play in a lot of situations, like gauntlets and +1 weapons for instance. Those just seem to me to have more inherent value, or better yet a suit of full plate and a large shield (which have teh same guide value right now as an elixer) are likely to save you far more times over.

yeah but you can use 1/2 plate, and a small shield, and lose very little off your AC (10% greater chance of getting hit) while only one thing in the game will bring you back from the dead... (or if your in a crunch heal you back to full in one combat round.)

one of my favorite uses for the elixer is using it in a trade to get a purple item.<br /><br />

<br />yeah but you can use 1/2 plate, and a small shield, and lose very little off your AC (10% greater chance of getting hit) while only one thing in the game will bring you back from the dead... (or if your in a crunch heal you back to full in one combat round.)<br />

<br /><br />If we're going to go 'on the cheap' so to speak, you can get spetacularly protected for 600 gold worth of items.<br /><br />Half plate<br />Large shield<br />bracers<br />amulet<br /><br />and 50 GP left over. With a AC of 21, that pretty much means that you're really not goign to be taking combat damage at all. If your'e worried about puzzle/room damage, then as stated previously, those tend to come in small lots and a handful of cures would be much better there than an elixer.

I think you're missing my point... so I'll try again: look at chainmail, it's worth more than banded, though it has a lesser AC bonus... why? <br /><br />It's the premium armor for a class (Bards), and banded isn't the premium armor for anything, thus the people that can use it are more interested in 1/2 plate and up... <br /><br />Items that have some unique aspect to them will be worth more than they "should" because more people will want them, because there is no other way to do what they do... <br /><br />Yes, in most instances you can protect yourself more efficiently, or heal yourself more effectively (and spread it out the multiple characters), but if you die, there is only 1 token that can deal with that... thus it is valued more than it "should" be based on a strict comparison, because of it's uniqueness. Is a CL-wand better for many instances? Of course. But that one time somebody drops unexpectedly, and you need a party member back from the dead, it's useless...

Sorry, you must've missed the first post or something, but the questioning of the elixer's value is its _objective_ value, not it's _subjective_ value, which, at the moment is 600 GP. In so far as it is possible to assess objective value, that is what I was discussing. I fully understand why it's priced as it is and for what reasons. I'm simply suggesting that objectively, it dosen't stack up well against other items with similar subjective goldpiece values.

I wasn't using my personal feelings (which is what I thought being subjective meant) I was explaining why I thought items with unique abilities (that people value) and the #1 item of it's type get valued at higher than just the normal incremement.<br /><br />the applicable definition of objective from dictionary.com:<br /><br /> 

a. Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices. <br />  b. Based on observable phenomena; presented factually:

<br /><br />Maybe it's not quantitative, but that's different... <br /><br />If you want to look at it quantitatively I think you say it can possibly heal 2.5 times what a VR Cure Light Wounds Scroll can, so you've got 2.5 * 120gp = 300gp. So half the value of the item is for it's healing properties. <br /><br />This next part maybe Dequils can help with... what is the gp value that you place on the fact that any character class can use it, and not just a cleric/bard? 50gp? 100gp? <br /><br />If we say 100, the last ability it has is to return you from the dead... is the value of that 200 gp? Comparing it to other items, 200gp doesn't seem to be too much to have a new chance to finish the dungeon, especially considering that the ticket prices will go up. <br /><br />If 200 seems high, also realize that there's a certain value in that it has all it's effect all at once, whereas the applicable scrolls/potions will take 2-3 rounds to have the similar effect... that's 2-3 rounds that (if your a fighter for example) you could be doing upwards of 14+ points of damage in a fight each round... if we look at certain damage causing spells and their values and calculate the extra attacks the faster healing process allows, then 600 is looking just fine (even if you disagree with the earlier valuations).<br /><br />So qualitatively & quantitatively speaking 600gp seems about right, whereas the 900gp range seems to be including some subjective valuation...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

<br /> I'm simply suggesting that objectively, it doesn't stack up well against other items with similar subjective goldpiece values.<br />

<br /><br />Hey Henwy,<br /><br />I'm reading this thread and I'm still not sure where you are with this.  Subjectively (i.e. for you), the Elixir isn't worth 600GP.  Like you mentioned, everyone by the very nature of things, will put a PERSONAL value on tokens.  Objectively though, 600GP is what people are buying/selling it at.  If there is one, this is the OBJECTIVE value.  If you want to say that this is the cumulative subjective value of many players, then its just semantics.<br /><br />Personally, I think having this token might save people from using healing.  If you know that you have a "life insurance" with this token, then you are less likely to heal and you aren't quite as afraid of dying.<br /><br />Also, you can not compare this token to other tokens because it has a unique function.  It can bring you back from the dead.  Now you could argue that the chances when this would matter are rare, but this is something that no other token can do.  In other words, this is the pinnacle of protection when everything else has been purchased.  <br /><br />Personally, I would rather have healing.  But I do understand how this item has the appeal that it does.<br /><br />Anyway, those are my 3 cents on the subject,<br />Douglas<br />

By objective value I mean what the item actually does for you, the benefits. For example, what are the percentage chances that you die in a room early enough that the exlier is of value, that you died suddenly enough that the elixer was the only way to save you and that you died in a manner which your body was retrievable and someone was alive left to give you the elixer in the first place.<br /><br />By subjective value I mean the amount that people are willing to pay for it. This is influenced by its rarity, its status as an 'insurance policy', it's usefulness to some in purple token trades, the fact that for rich tokened individuals there's not much else to buy after a while.

<br />the rich tokened individuals<br />

<br /><br />I prefer the term "the Token Affluent"... =D

token affluent? i like that.