TOPIC: Bliss Bull Shield Sleaze Question?

So, hypothetically, can I:

1. Equip a 2 handed melee weapon and Bliss Bull Shield in my ranged offhand and get +1 STR in both modes?

2. Equip a Shield of the Prism in my melee offhand and a Bliss Bull Shield in my ranged offhand and get +1 STR in both modes?

3. Equip the Defender Set in Melee and a Bliss Bull Shield in my ranged offhand and get +1 STR in both modes?


Right now character builders are letting me do all three.

1. no
2. no
3. no

If the bonus Strength doesn't apply for Bliss Bull Shield - then why does it work with various set bonuses? i.e. Barbarians getting Redoubt set bonus when using 2 handed melee and Redoubt shield for range?

Another question - If Fighter is using the Mighty Long Bow - and in Melee is using the Bliss Bull Shield to get to the next higher even # STR bonus - does he LOSE that one level of STR bonus for range with the Mighty Bow? (since it is no longer equipped)

Druegar wrote: 1. no
2. no
3. no

Thanks for the reply, can you reference the Player or DM guide page number violating Matthew's question?

Ed

I think this explanation from the the set bonuses section of the 2018 PHB covers the loss of a strength bonus when the item providing the bonus is an off-hand item in the other attack mode slot as sort of an aside. I don't know if it is covered directly anywhere else or if it's in previous versions of the document

---

You may temporarily swap one or both hand-held set-piece items (either melee for ranged or ranged for melee) and maintain the set’s bonus. However, the bonuses granted by the individual “lost” item(s) won’t apply. E.g., a ranger using SCEPTER, ORB, and BOOTS OF MIGHT to gain a level may swap out the scepter and orb to use a ranged weapon, but may not use any other melee weapons. During the swap-out, the ranger loses the +2 Strength bonus granted by the ORB OF MIGHT, but maintains the +1 level granted by the Might set.

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So in your example 3, I think you would maintain the defender set bonus in both melee and ranged, but would only have the strength bonus in ranged. I'm pretty sure this is considered sleazy by at least a subset of coaches but appears to be allowed.

Aegoce wrote: I think this explanation from the the set bonuses section of the 2018 PHB covers the loss of a strength bonus when the item providing the bonus is an off-hand item in the other attack mode slot as sort of an aside. I don't know if it is covered directly anywhere else or if it's in previous versions of the document

---

You may temporarily swap one or both hand-held set-piece items (either melee for ranged or ranged for melee) and maintain the set’s bonus. However, the bonuses granted by the individual “lost” item(s) won’t apply. E.g., a ranger using SCEPTER, ORB, and BOOTS OF MIGHT to gain a level may swap out the scepter and orb to use a ranged weapon, but may not use any other melee weapons. During the swap-out, the ranger loses the +2 Strength bonus granted by the ORB OF MIGHT, but maintains the +1 level granted by the Might set.

---

So in your example 3, I think you would maintain the defender set bonus in both melee and ranged, but would only have the strength bonus in ranged. I'm pretty sure this is considered sleazy by at least a subset of coaches but appears to be allowed.

No, it’s specifically prohibited.

From Players Guide p22 (and everywhere the set rule is described):

“Players using a shield to fulfill a set bonus may not use any other shield.“

So scenario 3 is unequivocally a “no go.”

Brad Mortensen wrote: So scenario 3 is unequivocally a “no go.”

Brad, that is what I thought (on item 3) but my understanding in items 1,2 were valid but you would lose the STR when you swapped to the other weapon (but it would unlikely be tracked).

Ed

MasterED wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: So scenario 3 is unequivocally a “no go.”

Brad, that is what I thought (on item 3) but my understanding in items 1,2 were valid but you would lose the STR when you swapped to the other weapon (but it would unlikely be tracked).

Ed

I think the answer to 1 and 2 is “yes (you can use two shields as long as neither grants a set bonus) and no (you don’t get the +1 STR if you’re not using the shield.)

So if the character generators don’t handle it, then for:
Scenario 1 - tell the coach you’re -1/-1 in melee
Scenario 2 - ditto, and don’t claim the ray immunity unless you’re in the mode holding the Prism shield

Cary Kelly wrote: If the bonus Strength doesn't apply for Bliss Bull Shield - then why does it work with various set bonuses? i.e. Barbarians getting Redoubt set bonus when using 2 handed melee and Redoubt shield for range?

Without getting into "why" keeping your set bonuses while not having all pieces equipped in various modes is just how set bonuses work.

It's been black letter rules for years - probably due at least initially to the Might Sets bonuses involving a melee weapon - it would have been extremely awkward to have players gaining and losing a level as they switch between melee and ranged and equip and unequipped Scepter of Might.

People have bought tokens over several years with this understanding, and it shouldn't be changed now.

Another question - If Fighter is using the Mighty Long Bow - and in Melee is using the Bliss Bull Shield to get to the next higher even # STR bonus - does he LOSE that one level of STR bonus for range with the Mighty Bow? (since it is no longer equipped)

This is the obverse of the question I asked.

If STR bonuses from offhand ranged items don't act in Melee, then pretty clearly STR bonuses from offhand melee items don't act in Ranged.

In fact, this was explicitly stated pretty recently in the case of Orb of Might.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Aegoce wrote: I think this explanation from the the set bonuses section of the 2018 PHB covers the loss of a strength bonus when the item providing the bonus is an off-hand item in the other attack mode slot as sort of an aside. I don't know if it is covered directly anywhere else or if it's in previous versions of the document

---

You may temporarily swap one or both hand-held set-piece items (either melee for ranged or ranged for melee) and maintain the set’s bonus. However, the bonuses granted by the individual “lost” item(s) won’t apply. E.g., a ranger using SCEPTER, ORB, and BOOTS OF MIGHT to gain a level may swap out the scepter and orb to use a ranged weapon, but may not use any other melee weapons. During the swap-out, the ranger loses the +2 Strength bonus granted by the ORB OF MIGHT, but maintains the +1 level granted by the Might set.

---

So in your example 3, I think you would maintain the defender set bonus in both melee and ranged, but would only have the strength bonus in ranged. I'm pretty sure this is considered sleazy by at least a subset of coaches but appears to be allowed.

No, it’s specifically prohibited.

From Players Guide p22 (and everywhere the set rule is described):

“Players using a shield to fulfill a set bonus may not use any other shield.“

So scenario 3 is unequivocally a “no go.”

This wording doesn't seem to appear in the new Player's Handbook Beta:

truedungeon.com/files/phb_beta.pdf

I can't find the Player's Guide linked anywhere on the True Dungeon website, so I doubt it is authoritative any longer.

In any case, if you quote the whole context, what is the players guide actually saying?

Is it saying if you are using a shield to fulfill a set bonus you can't equip any other shield period ever end of sentence?

Or is it saying you can't use any other shield in the combat mode where the set bonus shield has been equipped?


If it's the former it would mean a Paladin who equips the Templar set and uses the +1 Mighty Longbow couldn't use an Archer's Buckler - which seems wrong to me.

All character builders allow you to equip a set piece shield in one combat mode and a different shield in the other.

Brad Mortensen wrote: No, it’s specifically prohibited.

From Players Guide p22 (and everywhere the set rule is described):

“Players using a shield to fulfill a set bonus may not use any other shield.“

So scenario 3 is unequivocally a “no go.”

I think perhaps we need a bit of context on that quote (and we need to figure out player's guide vs player's handbook, what supersedes what and if something needs to be done to ensure they're consistent)

From page 22 of the old/current player's guide:

---

When a set contains a weapon, shield,
orb, or anything held in (not worn on)
the hand, the hand-held item must be
used when engaging in its respective
mode of combat. E.g., players using a
melee weapon to fulfill a set bonus may
only use that specific weapon if they
choose to engage in melee combat.
Players using a ranged weapon to fulfill
a set bonus may only use that specific
weapon if they choose to make a
physical ranged attack. Players using a
shield to fulfill a set bonus may not use
any other shield. Multiple sets may be
utilized provided all the requisite pieces
may be worn without violating physical
limits.

---

I interpret the shield portion of that write-up as being written with less specificity and not overriding what appears to be the intent for the section that items are locked per combat mode. This interpretation is also consistent with what appears to be the intent of page 64 of the player's handbook

page 64 of the beta/current? player's handbook

---

When a set bonus is achieved by equipping a weapon, shield, orb, or anything held in (not worn on) the hand, the hand-held item is “locked in” for that mode of combat.

---

I don't think unequivocal is a reasonable claim to make with the way the various documents are currently written.

I'm not opposed to the text being updated to say that you can only take 1 shield into the adventure, but that should be stated somewhere that doesn't leave the combat mode question in a less than clear state.

Aegoce wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: No, it’s specifically prohibited.

From Players Guide p22 (and everywhere the set rule is described):

“Players using a shield to fulfill a set bonus may not use any other shield.“

So scenario 3 is unequivocally a “no go.”

I think perhaps we need a bit of context on that quote (and we need to figure out player's guide vs player's handbook, what supersedes what and if something needs to be done to ensure they're consistent)

From page 22 of the old/current player's guide:

---

When a set contains a weapon, shield,
orb, or anything held in (not worn on)
the hand, the hand-held item must be
used when engaging in its respective
mode of combat. E.g., players using a
melee weapon to fulfill a set bonus may
only use that specific weapon if they
choose to engage in melee combat.
Players using a ranged weapon to fulfill
a set bonus may only use that specific
weapon if they choose to make a
physical ranged attack. Players using a
shield to fulfill a set bonus may not use
any other shield. Multiple sets may be
utilized provided all the requisite pieces
may be worn without violating physical
limits.

---

I interpret the shield portion of that write-up as being written with less specificity and not overriding what appears to be the intent for the section that items are locked per combat mode. This interpretation is also consistent with what appears to be the intent of page 64 of the player's handbook

page 64 of the beta/current? player's handbook

---

When a set bonus is achieved by equipping a weapon, shield, orb, or anything held in (not worn on) the hand, the hand-held item is “locked in” for that mode of combat.

---

I don't think unequivocal is a reasonable claim to make with the way the various documents are currently written.

I'm not opposed to the text being updated to say that you can only take 1 shield into the adventure, but that should be stated somewhere that doesn't leave the combat mode question in a less than clear state.

I think you're right.

The straightforward interpretation of that text to me is that it is restricting what is permitted in the same mode of combat where the set bonus shield is equipped. It says nothing about other modes.

This makes a good deal of sense: it is common in builds to have a set bonus shield in melee and using a 2 handed ranged weapon, or vice versa. If equipping a set bonus shield in one mode impacted what you can choose to put in your hand in the other mode that shouldn't be allowed either.