TOPIC: Politics

Tokens as birth control?

<br />First off, with these philosophical issues there is no "right" answer. People can have completely different viewpoints and that's fine.<br />You are absolutely right here. We all have the right to believe as we choose, regardless what others believe. And I hope no one mistakes my comments for attempts to make anyone change their minds. These are just expressions of my views and experiences. I intend no offense and am not easily offended on these subjects.<br /><br />The first overarching question is whether humanity is actually a "good" thing. Of course those with "traditional morals," the religious, and the human-centric will likely reply "of course!" but you could make some legitimate arguments to the contrary. Environmentalists would point out how destructive the human species is (sci-fi movies like the Matrix go as far as to label the human species as a parasite). Even from an economic point of view, looking at the scarcity of resources and the sheer amount of waste that the average consumer uses, high population growth simply does not seem to be sustainable.<br /> I'll give you that. It's hard to tell with us. If you take even a cursory look at the travesties man has done to man, without even considering what we have done to the planet and the other occupants of mother earth, it would be very easy to judge harshly. But before we condemn man totally, let's take a good look. Whether you believe in evolution or creation it is not difficult to see that man has come a long way toward becoming a humane being. From the depths of unrecorded history we came with no laws and the only sense of morals was continued personal survival. Man formed societies that created laws and religions sprang up that brought morals beyond mere survival. We have come a tremendous distance on the path of improvement. Yes we still kill and abuse each other, but less than we used to do. Today, almost every place on earth is divided into nations with one form or another of law driven societies. Out of hundreds of countries in the world, only a very small percentage are actively at a stage of armed conflict. At one time, slavery and piracy were the order of the day in almost every nation in the world and throughout the high seas. Not so today. In times past, commoners all over the world had little or no chance at education and effective health care of any kind; not so today in Europe, North America, and the north Atlantic nations between. And it is spreading around the world faster than it has ever done before. I believe that people all over the world are becoming more aware of the ills that plague us and want to make things better. Just look at the progress people have made in this country over the past 230 odd years. At the inception of this country most people could not read, write, or do arithmetic. Their moral world was dictated by the religion they were born into, when they were being watched. Their lives were short and mostly miserable. Almost everyone believed that slavery was natural and that everyone was subject to the will of their betters. The Indians were mostly considered heathen savages that must be pacified and converted to the white man's religion or exterminated. I think that two centuries of relative freedom, education, and better nutrition have improved us tremendously. Yes we have a very long way to go, but many of us are well on our way. I do see hope for mankind. There are many "ifs" in our future, but I think we will make it. I think there are enough indicators out there to show that man has a very good chance to become better as a species, if we don't kill ourselves first.<br /><br />If you want to take it to another level, you can evaluate whether human nature is innately good or evil. (Or maybe neutral since in some religions, the default is purgatory). And bring in concepts like original sin, etc.<br /><br />My personal view (which is admittedly a bit elitest) is that the average human tends to be more disruptive than beneficial (though mainly through incompetence rather than through malice).<br /><br />People often use the hypothetical argument that some great leader/discoverer was never born when he/she could have been (it's an argument common used in pro-life debates). If anything, I think it's more likely that the average random person would end up accidentally killing your hoped for great leader (through negligence, drunk driving, school shooting, whatever). <br />I was not intending to bring this discussion toward the subject of Pro Life/Pro Choice. I do not follow or participate in such discussions. But I don't think your hypothetical argument has any more validity than mine.<br /><br />I always find the hubris of parents to be particularly amusing. People often seem to be so egocentric to assume that their religion, their culture, their way of parenting is *obviously* the right one. Everyone else's kids may turn out bad, but of course *my* kids are clearly divine gifts and are definitely going to benefit society (but that's what everyone thinks until their kid does something bad, and the tv cameras show the parents saying "my son/daughter could never do such a horrible thing!). <br />I know what you mean here. I think it is a trick of nature to help insure the continuation of the species. Otherwise many parents would throttle their own brats.<br /><br />I'm also always amused by how human-centric and species-ist most people are. Arrogantly assuming that the human species is of paramount importance and how it must be the pinnacle of existence. <br />Well, aren't we? I am not an educated man by any stretch of the imagination. I was the first person in my family line that ever graduated high school, but that was almost four decades ago. So please bring me up to date on the advances of our discoveries. I for example, have not heard of another single intelligent species, much less one that could do higher mathematics, build great engineering marvels, delve into the secrets of atoms and the universe, or even compose a single line of poetry. I know of no intelligent works of art, lives dedicated in the service of others, or philosophical discussions performed by any other species. We may be just the latest in a long line of dominant creatures, but to the best of my knowledge, no other species has had the intellectual capacity, moral potential, or actual physical accomplishments that man has demonstrated. And our ability to amuse each other is unbounded.<br /><br />

<br /><br />Once again, please view these comments of mine in the light hearted way they are intended. If I ruffle feathers, let me know and I will desist. I discuss these points here because they were brought up and I like lively discussions without jabs and barbs.<br />

Don't be afraid to ruffle feathers in this thread. As long as this goes on (probably until Nov. 2), I hope people will express their honest views. There are no consequences. I for one, enjoyed your description of your childhood experiences. They opened my eyes to a side of life I never saw, altrhough I have some nasty stories too.

Unions aren't perfect, but they are helping the maintain the middle class the corporations seem hellbent on destroying.

<br /><br />I've been away from the forum for a few days.  Lots of interesting perspectives.  I really appreciate hearing the opinions and thoughts expressed.<br /><br />Just one thing on the union/corporation discussion.  I run a corporation so I have a dog in this fight.  I really don't like being characterized as an entity interested only in profit, and I don’t know anybody hell-bent on destroying the middle class.  Corporations are not bad.  I assume unions as well as retirement 401K plans, etc., etc. are involved in owning stocks, so your union is interested in corporations making profits to sustain your retirement.  Stockholders are the owners of corporations.  <br /><br />Every company I associate with is very aware that their employees are their most valuable assets.  And most, with or without unions, take reasonable steps to provide conditions, wages, benefits, etc. for their employees because good employees are hard to find.  As a vice president and general manager of a small corporation (45,000,000 in sales 3yrs ago and 36,000,000 this year due to economy), I do have an interest in profit--no question, but we also have a genuine interest in our employees.  Three years ago we split $350,000 among 85 employees for bonuses (every year for the last 45 years).  You can do the math.  I’m not sure how that destroys the middle class.  Because of the uncertain nature of the economy and businesses around us passing into history left and right, this year we will be splitting only $125,000 between 75 employees (had to let a few go and not replace others--due to the economy).  We hire legal immigrants from a refugee company—refugees from Cambodia, Myan Mar, Vietnam, Somalia, Greece, Russia, and Nigeria.  We have provided English classes at no cost when needed, helped several obtain citizenship (you can’t imagine the light in their eyes when that happens).  We have helped them work from repackers to forklift and palletjack certification, to CDL licenses and drivers, to managers.  If they have talent and desire, we help them grow.  We don’t go out of our way to hire illegal aliens.  I’ve had to send 17 of them home through ICE because we have found they have stolen identities of American citizens or used fraudulent papers copied from their “friend/pimp really” who gets one good set of paper and sells it to 10-20 different people.<br /><br />It is an offensive talking point with very little substance to say corporations are hell-bent on destroying the middle class.  If they destroy the middle class, they destroy their customer base.  Businessmen understand that—professors in ivory towers who have never run a lemon aide stand usually don’t.  A real world example of a large corporation might be in order.  I worked for the grocery chain, Albertsons, for 22 years.  At that time it was the fastest growing chain in the country and the most financially stable.  Running the company were men who had grown in the business with Joe Albertson from being stockers and checkers to running a company with 5-600 efficient, well run, and profitable stores.  I’ll forgo names, but if you want them I can give them to you.  The CFO for the company had the philosophy that everything should be paid for before opening a new store.  When he retired, Albertsons had zero long-term debt—zero.  There were unions and negotiations, and strikes, the usual, but the employees were treated really well and would have been even without the unions.  That was the philosophy of the company. Financially it was on top of the world.  Employees were secure, with great benefits, and a bright future.  Over a couple of years Joe Albertson died, and all of the senior management retired to be replaced by hotshots out of college with business models taught by “learned professors” who had never been in business, but had “studied” models.  About 15 years later out of necessity Albertsons sold to Supervalue.  It was 7 billion dollars in debt.  Poorly run, yes.  A disaster, yes.  On the brink of bankruptcy, yes.  Unstable, yes.  Why?  They weren’t intentionally trying to destroy the middle class or their employees until they became desperate by trying to follow models taught by college professors who had never run businesses—use debt, use other people’s money, leverage assets, buy other companies troubled assets cheap and turn them around.  Sounds like the model our government is trying to duplicate.  Maybe when the Chinese demand payment we will have to give them California.  What do you think?<br /><br />I’m not saying all businesses are angels.  There are some real rotten eggs.  I just get tired of the uninformed generalizations that I know to be so very untrue.<br /><br />Like Molda--sorry this is so long.

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<br />Parents, take note:  Teach your children to stand up for what's right, before we forget how.  And if you're not a Parent... what's your excuse?  what are you doing to improve this country?<br />

<br /><br />We're improving the country by *not* having children. It's a shame that more parents didn't have the foresight to make the same responsible decision....<br />

<br /><br />ok  this is being taken out of it's intended meaning.  I was not suggesting you all go out and have children, I was implying that folks with children have something they must protect, and others have less, and therefore should be more willing to stand up and risk being heard to say unpopular things.

I think I know what you are saying, but that implies that the opinions of those who cannot or choose not to have children are somehow less valid than those with children.  I would disagree with that - I certainly am willing to say unpopular things!

Well said Widseth. I heartily concur. I have run my own small company since 1995 (it's small but it's mine) and never dreamed that I would feel such satisfaction to see it be successful. The uncounted hours of extra hard work seem well worth the effort now. The socialists can go live in Cuba or North Korea. Let them get a little taste of that and then see what they think. The wonder of the United States is that anyone can be successful, if they have ambition (cuts out many), are willing to work hard (cuts out many) and a reasonable amount of intelligence (cuts out very few). Do any of you think that can happen in Cuba or North Korea? If you do, go try it out. I will buy you the plane ticket. One way.  

<br />I think I know what you are saying, but that implies that the opinions of those who cannot or choose not to have children are somehow less valid than those with children.  I would disagree with that - I certainly am willing to say unpopular things!<br />

<br /><br />Agreed - not having Children in no way makes you have less to stand up for, or be less willing to take a risk to do what is right. 

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<br />Parents, take note:  Teach your children to stand up for what's right, before we forget how.  And if you're not a Parent... what's your excuse?  what are you doing to improve this country?<br />

<br /><br />We're improving the country by *not* having children. It's a shame that more parents didn't have the foresight to make the same responsible decision....<br />

<br /><br />ok  this is being taken out of it's intended meaning.  I was not suggesting you all go out and have children, I was implying that folks with children have something they must protect, and others have less, and therefore should be more willing to stand up and risk being heard to say unpopular things.<br />

<br /><br />I don't think that the greatest ninja in all of Greyhawk was implying that childless people had lessor opinions. I think he meant that children gave the parents a greater sense of the need to have a better world for them. People without children have less worry about what happens in the world after they are dead and gone than someone who leaves children behind. At the same time, repercussions from speaking out have caused problems for parents to support and protect their children.

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<br />Parents, take note:  Teach your children to stand up for what's right, before we forget how.  And if you're not a Parent... what's your excuse?  what are you doing to improve this country?<br />

<br /><br />We're improving the country by *not* having children. It's a shame that more parents didn't have the foresight to make the same responsible decision....<br />

<br /><br />ok  this is being taken out of it's intended meaning.  I was not suggesting you all go out and have children, I was implying that folks with children have something they must protect, and others have less, and therefore should be more willing to stand up and risk being heard to say unpopular things.<br />

<br /><br />I don't think that the greatest ninja in all of Greyhawk was implying that childless people had lessor opinions. I think he meant that children gave the parents a greater sense of the need to have a better world for them. People without children have less worry about what happens in the world after they are dead and gone than someone who leaves children behind. At the same time, repercussions from speaking out have caused problems for parents to support and protect their children.<br />

<br /><br />yah what Lou said.  <br /><br />I'm about to give up on these forums, as I seem unable to convey anything without it being taken out of context, or as meaning something other than what I intended.

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<br />Parents, take note:  Teach your children to stand up for what's right, before we forget how.  And if you're not a Parent... what's your excuse?  what are you doing to improve this country?<br />

<br /><br />We're improving the country by *not* having children. It's a shame that more parents didn't have the foresight to make the same responsible decision....<br />

<br /><br />ok  this is being taken out of it's intended meaning.  I was not suggesting you all go out and have children, I was implying that folks with children have something they must protect, and others have less, and therefore should be more willing to stand up and risk being heard to say unpopular things.<br />

<br /><br />I don't think that the greatest ninja in all of Greyhawk was implying that childless people had lessor opinions. I think he meant that children gave the parents a greater sense of the need to have a better world for them. People without children have less worry about what happens in the world after they are dead and gone than someone who leaves children behind. At the same time, repercussions from speaking out have caused problems for parents to support and protect their children.<br />

<br /><br />yah what Lou said.  <br /><br />I'm about to give up on these forums, as I seem unable to convey anything without it being taken out of context, or as meaning something other than what I intended.<br />

<br /><br />Please forgive them Master Bahn, after all they are only Westerners. And human at that. lol

Yeah, don't leave. We need your wisdom.