TOPIC: Safehold I and Mythic Token Ideas => Part Two

James Bennett wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: For the Ring of Glory: you May equip 2 neck slots token, TD may want to update the rules around Horn of Plenty and Amulet of Treasure Finding compatibility.

Today Horn of Plenty and Amulet of Treasure Finding can both be equipped (so long as you have a way to equip two neck slot items).

(Charm of Avarice can’t be used with either Horn of Plenty with Amulet of Treasure Finding, but the Horn and Amulet themselves have no such restrictions on each other.)

Or, if someone is willing to actually acquire and wear all the treasure stuff maybe they deserve +4 treasure over what others will get.

Matthew's point about the unexpected effect of having multiple neck slot items which were designed expecting there to be only a single slot likely extends to other neck slot items. It may be worth considering that some neck slot items may need errata to prevent them from doubling up (e.g. someone equipping both the Relic and Legendary class necklaces).

That is a good point, too. It might be more complicated than I thought. We would have to say no Relic + Legendary tokens in the same transmute tree would be allowed...as well as no TE items.

Jeff Martin wrote:

James Bennett wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: For the Ring of Glory: you May equip 2 neck slots token, TD may want to update the rules around Horn of Plenty and Amulet of Treasure Finding compatibility.

Today Horn of Plenty and Amulet of Treasure Finding can both be equipped (so long as you have a way to equip two neck slot items).

(Charm of Avarice can’t be used with either Horn of Plenty with Amulet of Treasure Finding, but the Horn and Amulet themselves have no such restrictions on each other.)

Or, if someone is willing to actually acquire and wear all the treasure stuff maybe they deserve +4 treasure over what others will get.

Matthew's point about the unexpected effect of having multiple neck slot items which were designed expecting there to be only a single slot likely extends to other neck slot items. It may be worth considering that some neck slot items may need errata to prevent them from doubling up (e.g. someone equipping both the Relic and Legendary class necklaces).

That is a good point, too. It might be more complicated than I thought. We would have to say no Relic + Legendary tokens in the same transmute tree would be allowed...as well as no TE items.

At which point, most builds become Legendary Neck + Charm necklace. I'm already seeing this in planning builds for my 2025 build post that don't have a legendary neck already (Melee Ranger, Paladin, Bard), and poly druid (trinket trollform is so close in power to Iktomi's that every build I've looked at is generally "better" going for charm necklace). Bead bracelets + Charm necklace is the preferred setup for builds that include relic+ tokens.

Ian Lee wrote: While it's clear that you don't need any Mythic tokens to play Mythic difficulty based off of how the original post is worded, it's unclear whether you can play Mythic difficulty without a SH1.

Under this latest, is it true that anyone can play Mythic difficulty (to the point of absurdity like sealed Mythic) and Mythic tokens can be used on any difficulty level?

Mythic tokens can be used at any level of DR. No certain tokens are needed to play Mythic DR, but you won't survive long without any Mythic tokens.

Rob F wrote:

Picc wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Picc wrote:

Mongo wrote: I hate to say it but this prices my family out of ever playing Mythic…. Getting to safehold 1 and then getting the three mythic tokens to get around their mythic ability is just to costly for me to make a set for each of us in my family that plays.

I regret starting to make 5 sets of the safehold tokens down to safehold three due to the price being increased from what my expectations were, and the cost of mythic tokens added on top of this is just too much money.

I think Jeff listened to people who have no dog in this fight… people who will never make mythic themselves but encouraged pricing everyone else out of the market.

I think Jeff has forgotten who the intended audience is… people who have no intention of ever playing mythic being too vocal… but having these uber expensive tokens that will never sell for the cost of making them (no way to recoup one’s investment) is just too much to have tied up in a game, no matter how fun and enjoyable it may be.

I will still make one set for myself, but I just can’t justify making the other 4 I need for my entire family’s to play mythic… let alone getting them the three mythic tokens to circumvent the damage.

Hopefully mythic level is harder even if the party is equipping the 3 tokens else why play? Epic is fun as it is, and if Mythic ends up being just as hard as Epic if the party has the 3 tokens defeats the purpose of having Mythic other than bragging rights… but this ends up just being class warfare, “Pay to Play” mythic, only the rich can afford the tokens to play.

No, I am not “rage quitting”, but stating that my family can’t do this… and we were hoping to do so. I will have to play solo when doing mythic without my kids, and they will be very disappointed.

Legit question, how would you price a typical mythic. I can't imagine you're to far out of the target demographic, and to be honest while I don't know what goes on behind the curtain if your feeling priced out it's probably to expensive to actually get a viably consistent player base going.

He's not priced out. He's priced out of making 5 sets. I love Mongo but have a bit of difficulty sympathizing with someone getting down on the cost because they can't make 5 sets. I don't think Jeff is looking at setting the cost based on people making multiples of these. Someone may have 10 CoA but I wouldn't expect anyone to have 10 Coins of Wealth, etc.

Thing is though, if that group is even thinking hard about the cost let alone having trouble mustering mythics for everyone how may people do you think will actually be in the mythic population period. I have no info one way or the other but I assume we would need at least 30+ mythic players to see runs consistently fire and that's going to be a tall order already given there are only 38 people in the safehold registry at all.

I'm sure TDHQ has better numbers but personally I would rather see S rank parties die in the dungeon then get barred from trying by IRL logistics. And again that's not me saying the prices are wrong, just urging caution since we could mess this up rather easily.


For full disclosure on my personal perspective, I'm all in on safeholds/mythic play (I've liquidated a lot of my collection to be on track for an early safehold 1) but the mythics on top of that at the current pricing are gonna be a big ask. So I hope they end up doing more then just "you don't auto die in this otherwise identical dungeon if you don't have the same complete set of 5 everyone else does".

Very good points. I think Mythic Tokens should just be a new Token rarity and not a new difficulty level. Keep the dungeon difficulty as a separate issue altogether.

I am hoping to create a new Mythic XP and Reward system -- so a new DR is needed.

Quick thought on two neck items and unintended interactions:
As a general rule, adding specific restrictions to something is an indication that the concept needs to be reworked. I'd be in favor of just letting the interactions happen and making some general rules on interactions so that individual tokens don't need a wall of text in TokenDB.

Examples:
1. Just let Horn of Plenty + Amulet of Treasure Finding happen. If someone really wants to burn all their slots on treasure enhancers to get 4 extra treasure, let them.
2. Make a general rule around tokens in a transmute chain can't be used with others in the same slot. Then have things like Viper Fang be an explicit exception rather than the rule other things design around.

This is more meta feedback:

Don't be afraid of taking this slower. Forum-folks are likely not representative of your players.

Do surveys! Run conjoint studies! Get feedback post vtd and irl runs!

For something that's:
1) shaping the games trajectory
2) expensive

It seems fine to take it slow and iterate. SH1 already does a bunch, so you don't *have* to tie mythic to it's release. For what it's worth, you don't have to do anything, despite how loud people get.

It seems that a lot of the discussion has been:
1. How about X?
2. PersonA: I love it. PersonB: I hate it.
3. Okay, how about Y?
4. PersonA: I hate it. PersonB: I love it. PersonC: how about this wildly different third thing.
5. Rinse and repeat.

I'm more concerned that this is deadline driven development, and not really focused on:
1. What you, Jeff and the TD crew, *want* the game to be.
2. Quantitatively looking at what people's feelings are.

So far the mythic ideas have been a bit of whiplash, it's a bit hard to follow. It would be a shame if it all ends up just being +more to stats.

Mike Steele wrote:

Mythic Ioun Stone of Insight: I don't like that it completely negates the monster's Special Defense. I'd prefer it if it instead gave the player a percentage chance of success but still had a possibility of the Special Defense working. Maybe the percentage chance of success with the Mythic token would vary monster to monster.

This is a good point. My example was poor. I will change it on the next version.

Rob F wrote: What would make me want to increase my Token spend for a Mythic Token that's going to take a lot of cash to make? Two things:

1) From a Token collector standpoint I would like for the Token to be somewhat unique. I don't necessarily need the power or Token name to be unique but if there was a way for me to work with TD to create a custom image for my Mythic Token it would be a huge draw for me personally to work towards one. If these are supposed to be the rarest of rares then having a +8 Battle Axe with my own custom image would be awesome! Maybe there are multiple +8 Battle Axe Mythic Tokens that get made, (those Dwarfs worked hard in the deep forges long ago) but they were all crafted slightly different so each one has a unique image. Because the power and name is the same this keeps all databases the same (character generator's, VTD, etc.) so no extra work for TD there. Not sure how TD produces one off Tokens so maybe an issue from a manufacturing standpoint, but if it's just a matter of waiting for the next time they place a Token order it would still be well worth the wait.

2) Something cool for just people who have crafted Mythic Tokens to get or do. This doesn't have to be a dungeon run. It could be a yearly invite to a discussion forum at Gen Con with the entire TD team, a special happy hour for Mythic Token holders at Ring Con, a Mythic Token holder only PvP event where once a year a player is crowned TD champion (only way to get entry into this type of event would be if you had a Mythic Token), Mythic physical swag of some sort, entry into a Mythic Token holder yearly lottery where the winner gets 200 Treasure Pulls, etc.

A Mythic dungeon run sounds cool, but that alone is not enough of a draw for me to want to spend money towards making a Mythic Token.

This is some good input. Thanks. I am hoping a special XP & Reward system will make it cool. True Grind on Mythic should be some fun, too.

Make COW so that one is unable to equip any of the TEs that are a part of it's recipe if they equip a COW.

Restrict a player to equipping a single class relic or class legendary to avoid stacking issues.

Endgame wrote: Naming quibble witth the ring of glory:

* of Glory items have always added extra rings.

Perhaps call it:
Ring of Renown
Ring of Honor
Ring of Power ( )

Or go with something more specific to TD that adds flavor, like:
Selenwa's Blessing

Good point. How about Ring of the Ettin?

Marc D wrote:
Ring of the Ettin

Great minds think alike!

Jeff Martin wrote:

Marc D wrote:
Ring of the Ettin

Great minds think alike!

I get where you're going with that name, but is it truly Mythic? Exceptional items generally have names. For example, Sword of the King vs Excalibur - which one is a sword that any old king has, and which one was pulled from a stone?