TOPIC: 2022 Final Images -- Please have a look (& of course they are not Final-Final)

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Iross wrote: I think there are two questions to consider on Bead of Guided Strike.

1. Is it a problem if the builds at the highest level of play all have another token available which lets them ignore Crit immunity? Bearing in mind that they already ignore Surprise (Charm of Awakened Synergy), basically ignore elemental damage (Supreme Ring of Elemental Command), ignore movement penalties (Bead of the Lucky Traveler) and ignore Incorporeal (many tokens available, or just do it slotlessly with Psychic power). I'm honestly not sure it's a big deal if the builds which are insanely powerful also get to ignore Crit immunities if they want to use up another slot on doing so. Builds at lower power levels aren't going to cause as much damage on Crits, so I don't think this is as much of a concern outside of top-level builds anyway.

2. Given the power level of some of the existing and recently proposed beads, is Bead of Guided Strike likely to become a must-include in all builds? And will it remain that way as more beads get printed? It's certainly always going to be a candidate for builds, but I'm not sure that it will unconditionally go in every build given that even with three bead slots there is already Bead of the Lucky Traveler, Bead Cleric's Piety, Bead of the Dire Bear, Bead of Focus and Master Ale Drinker's Bead. Including Bead of Guided Strike in a build already comes at a cost of taking up a slot which could otherwise be used by one of those very desirable tokens, not to mention any beads printed in the future.

If the answer to either of the above is "No" then I think Bead of Guided Strike is fine as it is. If the answer is yes to both, maybe it needs to be Rogues only. Either way, it needs to not have its Crit immunity removed - making it only affect Sneak Attacks and not crits wouldn't solve the issue of needing to free up the wrist slot for Rogues, as Rogues play heavily off Crits and not just Sneak Attacks so need both abilities.

Also, on a related note - I love the new Lenses of Close Inspection. When I was still playing at Normal/occasional Hardcore level, I'd probably have given my right arm for something like that since it was always a bit crushing to be told I couldn't use my class ability in a room. Anyone playing at rare level will be playing a melee Rogue rather than ranged, so being melee-only still makes it a great token

Here is true problem with guided strike as I see it:

1. The value of a critics hit scales with the damage of the rest of your build. This is unusual - most things that boost damage give a static bonus, but a critical hit that is worth +10 for one player is worth +50 for another. As damage available increases yearly, the value of critical hits also increases.

2. The value of critical hits varies widely by class. Dwarf fighters and ranged bards and rogues with Assassin’s crossbow get 3x. Legendary monks get 19+ crits in melee and ranged. Legendary Rogues get 17+ crits 2/room. Legendary Barbarians get the benefits of a crit on a hit 2/game. Monks and melee Rangers get twice the chance of a crit in VTD and I speculate a higher chance in physical TD. A spell focused Druid gets no benefit whatsoever from critical.

So with all that bypassing crit immunity is worth vastly different amounts to classes inherently, and by gearing level. The value scales up in an unlimited fashion as damage increases.

I’d be much happier if this token said: +15 damage on crit immune monsters if you would have scored a critical hit. That would pare down the variability and make it so this token can’t someday be worth +200 damage to a single attack.

Note: this is all about the crit part, not the sneak attack part.

+1. Having a specific damage amount on crit immune monsters would be much better.

Guedoji wrote:

Raven wrote: Okay, I’ve been doing a lot of thinking on the Bead of Guided Strike but I’m typing on my phone during a work break, so pls forgive poor grammar or spelling....

Thought #1: This bead is awesome and everyone will want it, Rogues & non-rogues alike. It will drive sales. It will *not* lead to treasure depreciation the same way a sales-driving Treasure enhancer might, nor will it break the game. If this Bead is the replacement for previous Everyone-Will-Want-This offerings, then it’s honestly in a very good place right now.

Thought #2: Braced of Guided Strike is not a Class-defining token. It is a way to prevent the game from nullifying a Class Defining Ability. Rogues wouldn’t equip it at all if it wasn’t for the surge in recent years of monsters which are crit/SA immune. It sucks that we need to set aside a valuable slot in order to use our basic abilities in combats which would otherwise mix them, but I’m glad we’ve at least been given that option instead of being stuck unable to use our SA on 1/3 of the monsters in a dungeon.

Thought #3: We don’t really know yet what the Bead slot will turn into. What if it is used to swap in all kinds of tokens which prevent “dungeon nerfs” .... like, a Bead of Guided Spells (always bypass spell resistance) or a Bead of Shiwlding (Immune to Retribuition damage!) or a Bead of True Sight (take that Mr Tavernkeeper!) and we can decide from year to year which beads we want to equip based on which things we feel we’re most likely to encounter in the dungeon. None of those abilities add to stats or make one class stronger than another.. they just change how the dungeon is going to screw with us.

#4... I’ll admit it. I really want that bead to make it to print. It’s overpowered compared to the Bracers... but what if we had it wrong, and the bracers were over-demanding of our builds all along?

Agreed. Although I think the answer is Rogues shouldn't need a token to do their class defining ability and we should remove the need for both the one round delay and make Rogues by default able to crit/sneak anything outside of the most exceptional circumstances.

Rouge class was never intended to always sneak attack on the first round and always crit crit immune monsters. Not even in D&D. If TD wanted it that way they wouldn't have design the class that way.

Iross wrote: I think there are two questions to consider on Bead of Guided Strike.

1. Is it a problem if the builds at the highest level of play all have another token available which lets them ignore Crit immunity? Bearing in mind that they already ignore Surprise (Charm of Awakened Synergy), basically ignore elemental damage (Supreme Ring of Elemental Command), ignore movement penalties (Bead of the Lucky Traveler) and ignore Incorporeal (many tokens available, or just do it slotlessly with Psychic power). I'm honestly not sure it's a big deal if the builds which are insanely powerful also get to ignore Crit immunities if they want to use up another slot on doing so. Builds at lower power levels aren't going to cause as much damage on Crits, so I don't think this is as much of a concern outside of top-level builds anyway.

2. Given the power level of some of the existing and recently proposed beads, is Bead of Guided Strike likely to become a must-include in all builds? And will it remain that way as more beads get printed? It's certainly always going to be a candidate for builds, but I'm not sure that it will unconditionally go in every build given that even with three bead slots there is already Bead of the Lucky Traveler, Bead Cleric's Piety, Bead of the Dire Bear, Bead of Focus and Master Ale Drinker's Bead. Including Bead of Guided Strike in a build already comes at a cost of taking up a slot which could otherwise be used by one of those very desirable tokens, not to mention any beads printed in the future.

If the answer to either of the above is "No" then I think Bead of Guided Strike is fine as it is. If the answer is yes to both, maybe it needs to be Rogues only. Either way, it needs to not have its Crit immunity removed - making it only affect Sneak Attacks and not crits wouldn't solve the issue of needing to free up the wrist slot for Rogues, as Rogues play heavily off Crits and not just Sneak Attacks so need both abilities.

Also, on a related note - I love the new Lenses of Close Inspection. When I was still playing at Normal/occasional Hardcore level, I'd probably have given my right arm for something like that since it was always a bit crushing to be told I couldn't use my class ability in a room. Anyone playing at rare level will be playing a melee Rogue rather than ranged, so being melee-only still makes it a great token

I wonder if the Crit immunity could be once per room, maybe the first attack per room. That would pair nicely with the once per room sneak attack, and would reduce the benefit for the overpowered melee classes - but would still provide a benefit.

Just had a late game thought, 4 charms seems super powerful on that legendary.

I have a suggestion to make it instead of 4 more charm slots, to Player’s Choice of 3 expandable slots without affecting max carry for any slot

Mike Steele wrote:

Iross wrote: I think there are two questions to consider on Bead of Guided Strike.

1. Is it a problem if the builds at the highest level of play all have another token available which lets them ignore Crit immunity? Bearing in mind that they already ignore Surprise (Charm of Awakened Synergy), basically ignore elemental damage (Supreme Ring of Elemental Command), ignore movement penalties (Bead of the Lucky Traveler) and ignore Incorporeal (many tokens available, or just do it slotlessly with Psychic power). I'm honestly not sure it's a big deal if the builds which are insanely powerful also get to ignore Crit immunities if they want to use up another slot on doing so. Builds at lower power levels aren't going to cause as much damage on Crits, so I don't think this is as much of a concern outside of top-level builds anyway.

2. Given the power level of some of the existing and recently proposed beads, is Bead of Guided Strike likely to become a must-include in all builds? And will it remain that way as more beads get printed? It's certainly always going to be a candidate for builds, but I'm not sure that it will unconditionally go in every build given that even with three bead slots there is already Bead of the Lucky Traveler, Bead Cleric's Piety, Bead of the Dire Bear, Bead of Focus and Master Ale Drinker's Bead. Including Bead of Guided Strike in a build already comes at a cost of taking up a slot which could otherwise be used by one of those very desirable tokens, not to mention any beads printed in the future.

If the answer to either of the above is "No" then I think Bead of Guided Strike is fine as it is. If the answer is yes to both, maybe it needs to be Rogues only. Either way, it needs to not have its Crit immunity removed - making it only affect Sneak Attacks and not crits wouldn't solve the issue of needing to free up the wrist slot for Rogues, as Rogues play heavily off Crits and not just Sneak Attacks so need both abilities.

Also, on a related note - I love the new Lenses of Close Inspection. When I was still playing at Normal/occasional Hardcore level, I'd probably have given my right arm for something like that since it was always a bit crushing to be told I couldn't use my class ability in a room. Anyone playing at rare level will be playing a melee Rogue rather than ranged, so being melee-only still makes it a great token

I wonder if the Crit immunity could be once per room, maybe the first attack per room. That would pair nicely with the once per room sneak attack, and would reduce the benefit for the overpowered melee classes - but would still provide a benefit.

It would certainly stop classes from landing multiple Crits, but I'm mindful that the Bead was created following multiple posts/threads about Rogues not getting to equip the new transmuted Bracelets. Anyone wanting to equip those is very likely to have two Sneak Attacks per combat due to the class necklace, so this wouldn't make the Bead an ideal alternative to the Bracers. It might be an option for a compromise, since Rogues would still get to do one Sneak Attack and that's certainly better than zero, but I don't think I'd be too keen on running it instead of the Bracers if it was only 1/Room.

Dougout wrote: Just had a late game thought, 4 charms seems super powerful on that legendary.

I have a suggestion to make it instead of 4 more charm slots, to Player’s Choice of 3 expandable slots without affecting max carry for any slot

I think this might make it really tough on the folks developing the character builder apps and website.

Rob F wrote:

Dougout wrote: Just had a late game thought, 4 charms seems super powerful on that legendary.

I have a suggestion to make it instead of 4 more charm slots, to Player’s Choice of 3 expandable slots without affecting max carry for any slot

I think this might make it really tough on the folks developing the character builder apps and website.

How hard is it to just add 3 neck slots, really?



(kidding... totally agree with you.)

Dougout wrote: Just had a late game thought, 4 charms seems super powerful on that legendary.

I have a suggestion to make it instead of 4 more charm slots, to Player’s Choice of 3 expandable slots without affecting max carry for any slot

Three bonus slots that I can put anything in? I'll take a Charm Necklace, Earcuff of Orbits, and Charm Bracelets. Now I have 5 more charms and 2 ioun stones.

Grizwald wrote:

Dougout wrote: Just had a late game thought, 4 charms seems super powerful on that legendary.

I have a suggestion to make it instead of 4 more charm slots, to Player’s Choice of 3 expandable slots without affecting max carry for any slot

Three bonus slots that I can put anything in? I'll take a Charm Necklace, Earcuff of Orbits, and Charm Bracelets. Now I have 5 more charms and 2 ioun stones.

Considering a single player choice slot is already at the Artifact level, that would be way too powerful. I think 4 charms at a legendary level is fine, especially as we already have IS/Charm caps in place.

Phil

Thanks all! I am going to make the Bead of Guided Strike usable by Fighters and Rogues only. Seems a good way to do it.

That relic turkey leg! You got us, Jeff! Well played!

Jeff Martin wrote: Thanks all! I am going to make the Bead of Guided Strike usable by Fighters and Rogues only. Seems a good way to do it.

Thanks Jeff for leaving it useable by Rogues with the same ability originally proposed, this means we get to join in with the excitement of the other classes over the new bracelet transmutes