TOPIC: 2022 Final Images -- Please have a look (& of course they are not Final-Final)

Ian Lee wrote: Sneak Attack (only)

Once per combat, can get +20 damage (5th lvl) by spending a round not attacking and only if monster can be sneaked.

Eight UR+ tokens address the limitations of this ability; I care about these because having a class expect to run less than URs when others don't (HoI, CoE no longer) is weird. Only the class transmute path tokens allow a second SA in a combat. Three of these allow for not taking a round off from attacking, with two of the three being the relic and legendary.

The SA problems have certainly been massively affected by relatively recent class transmutes. Let's say someone doesn't have one. So, could use Boots to SA on firsr round *or* could use Shoes to SA twice, not that that makes sense without one of the tokens below UR that allows for ignoring one round delay.

I built a rogue build for a friend prior to getting the legendary. After I sent the link to the build, it occurred to me that I put zero SA related tokens into the build and sent a message saying "just ignore SA as it will be awful". I'm sure that's the advice someone would want to hear about playing a class - just ignore your primary class ability because it's not good enough to bother at this level of play.

Is it thematic that not everything can be sneaked? Sure. Does it seem interesting to have tokens that allow sneaking monster types that can't be? Maybe. Would not want to see monsters that can't be meleed or can't be missiled or can't be spelled, though those are broader categories than SA. Hard to create a similar analogy, well, besides immune to crits ...

Crits

How often does this come up? It varies. I can understand how tiresome it is when it comes up a lot. After all, isn't the point of crits existing at all in the first place that it gives dramatic experiences? Now, one 5th level class has a crit ability and critting is getting far, far more common with all of the casual 19-20 and the increase in ranges beyond 19.

For 4abc, I didn't think it important to run BoGS. One combat affected, not room 7. Gave it a feature. In 3ab, I ran Charm of Final Repose on multiple builds. I enjoyed doing that. I would not have enjoyed something like that if it was multiple plant fights or multiple ooze fights as it wasn't as easily solved and those types lack the same flavor as undead, anyway, as I also focused on Turn Undead in a run of 3b.

Anyway, that was rambly. But, I'm fine with like one, non-room7 combat in a dungeon requiring effort for SA or critting, philosophically. I find it interesting to meta to one monster type if it's easy (lower importance slot) in a given year, so the all construct year or whatever with like an IS that smashes constructs. But, as a general hose, the thematics are getting in the way of the mechanics.

Or, just make rogue and (both) fighters way better off the card, like improve their saves, give them more/other abilities. Not like can't fit six or so abilities on a (monk) card. Then, rogue and DF have only one of several useful things hosed, though it still seems weird to hose SA on thematic grounds.

It's almost like having monsters with built in coin flip as to whether a spell will affect them or not ...

Yes! Thank you. This is true of Rogues. We need more abilities and to be able to use our primary more often without a ton of tokens. I really like a vanish or evasion ability that adds to saves or makes the rogue untagetable for one round.

Raven wrote: Okay, I’ve been doing a lot of thinking on the Bead of Guided Strike but I’m typing on my phone during a work break, so pls forgive poor grammar or spelling....

Thought #1: This bead is awesome and everyone will want it, Rogues & non-rogues alike. It will drive sales. It will *not* lead to treasure depreciation the same way a sales-driving Treasure enhancer might, nor will it break the game. If this Bead is the replacement for previous Everyone-Will-Want-This offerings, then it’s honestly in a very good place right now.

Thought #2: Braced of Guided Strike is not a Class-defining token. It is a way to prevent the game from nullifying a Class Defining Ability. Rogues wouldn’t equip it at all if it wasn’t for the surge in recent years of monsters which are crit/SA immune. It sucks that we need to set aside a valuable slot in order to use our basic abilities in combats which would otherwise mix them, but I’m glad we’ve at least been given that option instead of being stuck unable to use our SA on 1/3 of the monsters in a dungeon.

Thought #3: We don’t really know yet what the Bead slot will turn into. What if it is used to swap in all kinds of tokens which prevent “dungeon nerfs” .... like, a Bead of Guided Spells (always bypass spell resistance) or a Bead of Shiwlding (Immune to Retribuition damage!) or a Bead of True Sight (take that Mr Tavernkeeper!) and we can decide from year to year which beads we want to equip based on which things we feel we’re most likely to encounter in the dungeon. None of those abilities add to stats or make one class stronger than another.. they just change how the dungeon is going to screw with us.

#4... I’ll admit it. I really want that bead to make it to print. It’s overpowered compared to the Bracers... but what if we had it wrong, and the bracers were over-demanding of our builds all along?

+1

Guedoji wrote:

Raven wrote: Okay, I’ve been doing a lot of thinking on the Bead of Guided Strike but I’m typing on my phone during a work break, so pls forgive poor grammar or spelling....

Thought #1: This bead is awesome and everyone will want it, Rogues & non-rogues alike. It will drive sales. It will *not* lead to treasure depreciation the same way a sales-driving Treasure enhancer might, nor will it break the game. If this Bead is the replacement for previous Everyone-Will-Want-This offerings, then it’s honestly in a very good place right now.

Thought #2: Braced of Guided Strike is not a Class-defining token. It is a way to prevent the game from nullifying a Class Defining Ability. Rogues wouldn’t equip it at all if it wasn’t for the surge in recent years of monsters which are crit/SA immune. It sucks that we need to set aside a valuable slot in order to use our basic abilities in combats which would otherwise mix them, but I’m glad we’ve at least been given that option instead of being stuck unable to use our SA on 1/3 of the monsters in a dungeon.

Thought #3: We don’t really know yet what the Bead slot will turn into. What if it is used to swap in all kinds of tokens which prevent “dungeon nerfs” .... like, a Bead of Guided Spells (always bypass spell resistance) or a Bead of Shiwlding (Immune to Retribuition damage!) or a Bead of True Sight (take that Mr Tavernkeeper!) and we can decide from year to year which beads we want to equip based on which things we feel we’re most likely to encounter in the dungeon. None of those abilities add to stats or make one class stronger than another.. they just change how the dungeon is going to screw with us.

#4... I’ll admit it. I really want that bead to make it to print. It’s overpowered compared to the Bracers... but what if we had it wrong, and the bracers were over-demanding of our builds all along?

Agreed. Although I think the answer is Rogues shouldn't need a token to do their class defining ability and we should remove the need for both the one round delay and make Rogues by default able to crit/sneak anything outside of the most exceptional circumstances.

While Fiddy alluded to it, I want to mention that Clerics can’t turn most stuff, and the 5th level damage spell is likewise limited and restricted. It’s ok that this stuff doesn’t work every room (or even once / dungeon), and Turn Undead is pretty class defining. Given this as precedent, I don’t think rogues need to have every down side of sneak attack removed.

Basically sneak attack is designed to give you 2 rounds (or more!) of damage in 1 round (after a delay). Getting it for free, all the time, without restriction just saying that rogues need a big damage bump all the time.

Azzy wrote:

Raven wrote: Thought #2: Braced of Guided Strike is not a Class-defining token. It is a way to prevent the game from nullifying a Class Defining Ability.

Say it again louder for the people in back.

So, instead:

Bead of Sneakocity: +2 DEX & Ignore Sneak Attack Immunity

Rogues get to sneak.

Everyone gets DEX.

No one gets to negate crit immunity?

As a Rogue player, I think the bead slot is a little too open for Guided Strike. I'd love to have it, but looking at it objectively it does make more sense to put it in another contested slot like gloves or belt etc.

The fact that Guided Strike feels necessary is due to the high numbers of crit-immune Monsters lately, and could be addressed in dungeon design. Three rooms with different crit immunities in one run is excessive (happened recently). One crit-immune monster is fun, and can be even more so when there's some way to remove the immunity or do extra damage to the monster that the party has to figure out.

I have Bracers of Guided Strike, and there are times when I wish it was less "necessary", but I think that has more to do with the frequency of crit immunity than anything else. If there were fewer crit-immune Monsters, we wouldn't be concerned about it.

Miathan wrote:

Endgame wrote: Lots of charms and Iouns in the participation token set. With the bead expansion, perhaps move charm of the deep(er) ones to bead?

We are also missing a +4 ref save bead. Perhaps move the charm of the sea Lion / Kraken to ref save bead? By moving the Str charm out, it will make the new Vol charms more desirable, and it covers the missing bead reflex save.

I do think it would be a good idea to move some of the participation tokens to bead this year as they should be immediately useful to new players upon completion of a run

Yeah, it would be nice to have some be beads.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Azzy wrote:

Raven wrote: Thought #2: Braced of Guided Strike is not a Class-defining token. It is a way to prevent the game from nullifying a Class Defining Ability.

Say it again louder for the people in back.

So, instead:

Bead of Sneakocity: +2 DEX & Ignore Sneak Attack Immunity

Rogues get to sneak.

Everyone gets DEX.

No one gets to negate crit immunity?

I could get behind that.

Jeff Martin wrote: Some of these tokens are NOT for 95% of the folks commenting on them. Rather, we have included some tokens that are more suited for beginner, Rare-level and "got a few URs"-level folks.

I feel called out here. I haven't had much of a chance to analyze everything, but the rares all look great. I like the work you and everyone here has put in.

I think there are two questions to consider on Bead of Guided Strike.

1. Is it a problem if the builds at the highest level of play all have another token available which lets them ignore Crit immunity? Bearing in mind that they already ignore Surprise (Charm of Awakened Synergy), basically ignore elemental damage (Supreme Ring of Elemental Command), ignore movement penalties (Bead of the Lucky Traveler) and ignore Incorporeal (many tokens available, or just do it slotlessly with Psychic power). I'm honestly not sure it's a big deal if the builds which are insanely powerful also get to ignore Crit immunities if they want to use up another slot on doing so. Builds at lower power levels aren't going to cause as much damage on Crits, so I don't think this is as much of a concern outside of top-level builds anyway.

2. Given the power level of some of the existing and recently proposed beads, is Bead of Guided Strike likely to become a must-include in all builds? And will it remain that way as more beads get printed? It's certainly always going to be a candidate for builds, but I'm not sure that it will unconditionally go in every build given that even with three bead slots there is already Bead of the Lucky Traveler, Bead Cleric's Piety, Bead of the Dire Bear, Bead of Focus and Master Ale Drinker's Bead. Including Bead of Guided Strike in a build already comes at a cost of taking up a slot which could otherwise be used by one of those very desirable tokens, not to mention any beads printed in the future.

If the answer to either of the above is "No" then I think Bead of Guided Strike is fine as it is. If the answer is yes to both, maybe it needs to be Rogues only. Either way, it needs to not have its Crit immunity removed - making it only affect Sneak Attacks and not crits wouldn't solve the issue of needing to free up the wrist slot for Rogues, as Rogues play heavily off Crits and not just Sneak Attacks so need both abilities.

Also, on a related note - I love the new Lenses of Close Inspection. When I was still playing at Normal/occasional Hardcore level, I'd probably have given my right arm for something like that since it was always a bit crushing to be told I couldn't use my class ability in a room. Anyone playing at rare level will be playing a melee Rogue rather than ranged, so being melee-only still makes it a great token

Guedoji wrote: [...] Although I think the answer is Rogues shouldn't need a token to do their class defining ability and we should remove the need for both the one round delay and make Rogues by default able to crit/sneak anything outside of the most exceptional circumstances.

Yes, so much this.

A HC/NM Rogue is one of the most expensive classes to equip, because of the number of URs required -- why is that?

Iross wrote: I think there are two questions to consider on Bead of Guided Strike.

1. Is it a problem if the builds at the highest level of play all have another token available which lets them ignore Crit immunity? Bearing in mind that they already ignore Surprise (Charm of Awakened Synergy), basically ignore elemental damage (Supreme Ring of Elemental Command), ignore movement penalties (Bead of the Lucky Traveler) and ignore Incorporeal (many tokens available, or just do it slotlessly with Psychic power). I'm honestly not sure it's a big deal if the builds which are insanely powerful also get to ignore Crit immunities if they want to use up another slot on doing so. Builds at lower power levels aren't going to cause as much damage on Crits, so I don't think this is as much of a concern outside of top-level builds anyway.

2. Given the power level of some of the existing and recently proposed beads, is Bead of Guided Strike likely to become a must-include in all builds? And will it remain that way as more beads get printed? It's certainly always going to be a candidate for builds, but I'm not sure that it will unconditionally go in every build given that even with three bead slots there is already Bead of the Lucky Traveler, Bead Cleric's Piety, Bead of the Dire Bear, Bead of Focus and Master Ale Drinker's Bead. Including Bead of Guided Strike in a build already comes at a cost of taking up a slot which could otherwise be used by one of those very desirable tokens, not to mention any beads printed in the future.

If the answer to either of the above is "No" then I think Bead of Guided Strike is fine as it is. If the answer is yes to both, maybe it needs to be Rogues only. Either way, it needs to not have its Crit immunity removed - making it only affect Sneak Attacks and not crits wouldn't solve the issue of needing to free up the wrist slot for Rogues, as Rogues play heavily off Crits and not just Sneak Attacks so need both abilities.

Also, on a related note - I love the new Lenses of Close Inspection. When I was still playing at Normal/occasional Hardcore level, I'd probably have given my right arm for something like that since it was always a bit crushing to be told I couldn't use my class ability in a room. Anyone playing at rare level will be playing a melee Rogue rather than ranged, so being melee-only still makes it a great token

Here is true problem with guided strike as I see it:

1. The value of a critics hit scales with the damage of the rest of your build. This is unusual - most things that boost damage give a static bonus, but a critical hit that is worth +10 for one player is worth +50 for another. As damage available increases yearly, the value of critical hits also increases.

2. The value of critical hits varies widely by class. Dwarf fighters and ranged bards and rogues with Assassin’s crossbow get 3x. Legendary monks get 19+ crits in melee and ranged. Legendary Rogues get 17+ crits 2/room. Legendary Barbarians get the benefits of a crit on a hit 2/game. Monks and melee Rangers get twice the chance of a crit in VTD and I speculate a higher chance in physical TD. A spell focused Druid gets no benefit whatsoever from critical.

So with all that bypassing crit immunity is worth vastly different amounts to classes inherently, and by gearing level. The value scales up in an unlimited fashion as damage increases.

I’d be much happier if this token said: +15 damage on crit immune monsters if you would have scored a critical hit. That would pare down the variability and make it so this token can’t someday be worth +200 damage to a single attack.

Note: this is all about the crit part, not the sneak attack part.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Iross wrote: I think there are two questions to consider on Bead of Guided Strike.

1. Is it a problem if the builds at the highest level of play all have another token available which lets them ignore Crit immunity? Bearing in mind that they already ignore Surprise (Charm of Awakened Synergy), basically ignore elemental damage (Supreme Ring of Elemental Command), ignore movement penalties (Bead of the Lucky Traveler) and ignore Incorporeal (many tokens available, or just do it slotlessly with Psychic power). I'm honestly not sure it's a big deal if the builds which are insanely powerful also get to ignore Crit immunities if they want to use up another slot on doing so. Builds at lower power levels aren't going to cause as much damage on Crits, so I don't think this is as much of a concern outside of top-level builds anyway.

2. Given the power level of some of the existing and recently proposed beads, is Bead of Guided Strike likely to become a must-include in all builds? And will it remain that way as more beads get printed? It's certainly always going to be a candidate for builds, but I'm not sure that it will unconditionally go in every build given that even with three bead slots there is already Bead of the Lucky Traveler, Bead Cleric's Piety, Bead of the Dire Bear, Bead of Focus and Master Ale Drinker's Bead. Including Bead of Guided Strike in a build already comes at a cost of taking up a slot which could otherwise be used by one of those very desirable tokens, not to mention any beads printed in the future.

If the answer to either of the above is "No" then I think Bead of Guided Strike is fine as it is. If the answer is yes to both, maybe it needs to be Rogues only. Either way, it needs to not have its Crit immunity removed - making it only affect Sneak Attacks and not crits wouldn't solve the issue of needing to free up the wrist slot for Rogues, as Rogues play heavily off Crits and not just Sneak Attacks so need both abilities.

Also, on a related note - I love the new Lenses of Close Inspection. When I was still playing at Normal/occasional Hardcore level, I'd probably have given my right arm for something like that since it was always a bit crushing to be told I couldn't use my class ability in a room. Anyone playing at rare level will be playing a melee Rogue rather than ranged, so being melee-only still makes it a great token

Here is true problem with guided strike as I see it:

1. The value of a critics hit scales with the damage of the rest of your build. This is unusual - most things that boost damage give a static bonus, but a critical hit that is worth +10 for one player is worth +50 for another. As damage available increases yearly, the value of critical hits also increases.

2. The value of critical hits varies widely by class. Dwarf fighters and ranged bards and rogues with Assassin’s crossbow get 3x. Legendary monks get 19+ crits in melee and ranged. Legendary Rogues get 17+ crits 2/room. Legendary Barbarians get the benefits of a crit on a hit 2/game. Monks and melee Rangers get twice the chance of a crit in VTD and I speculate a higher chance in physical TD. A spell focused Druid gets no benefit whatsoever from critical.

So with all that bypassing crit immunity is worth vastly different amounts to classes inherently, and by gearing level. The value scales up in an unlimited fashion as damage increases.

I’d be much happier if this token said: +15 damage on crit immune monsters if you would have scored a critical hit. That would pare down the variability and make it so this token can’t someday be worth +200 damage to a single attack.

Note: this is all about the crit part, not the sneak attack part.

Understood and completely agreed, but those classes are dealing that much damage in the vast majority of rooms anyway as a normal matter of course as their standard combat damage.

If I take an estimate in all the TD runs I've done, I've encountered a Sneak/Crit-immune monster in maybe 20% of combats. Assuming that remains roughly the same going forward, in 80% of combats the Bead is going to be a completely blank token with no effect whatsoever. I don't think it's unreasonable for it to provide a large damage boost to specific classes/builds in a minority of combats, subject to the even more specific condition of landing a Crit, as opposed to equipping something else which grants ongoing bonuses in every room and is always useful.

But if it's really thought to be an issue (since I'm less familiar with the intricacies of building the other classes), then just make the token Rogue-only. I'd rather see that then have it be downpowered and no longer serve the purpose it was originally created for.