Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me

TOPIC: DM Feedback

DM Feedback 2 months 3 weeks ago #37

jedibcg banjo 2020 is the worst wrote:

Marc D wrote: I understand the desire people have for firm metrics around "NM ready" builds. But from experience with these sort of things, any firm baseline like this will result in even more complaints if you deviate even slightly. It also raises questions like "is that To Hit before or after buffs?" The more prescriptive you get, the more people tend to take those numbers absolutely literally :(


I am not seeking any firm metrics. But if the idea is that you should have a relic weapon vs a UR or a Rare weapon, that should be noted. It was noted previously. And though I don't remember I thought Nightmare used to be some like some UR's and Rares and general knowledge of play.

I don't even know where the difficulties on the website are any more.


I remember that a while back, where it noted that players at the various levels had "mostly red with some purple" or "mostly purple, or even better". I tried to find it before posting, but couldn't. I wonder if it was taken out to avoid the perception of pay to win? Or just because the design space has been filled in enough at sub-UR levels to make optimized Rare builds NM viable?

I also can't find a description of Epic anymore, which did reference having extremely well-geared characters with very powerful tokens.

Regardless, I'm in agreement with the sentiment that "must have a +X or better weapon" is not a great design space unless there's some way to overcome through skill (slide specific numbers in physical dungeons) or creative thinking.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

DM Feedback 2 months 3 weeks ago #38

Difficulty level also changes dramatically based on dungeon familiarity.

Rm3 NM was a one round kill on my last run where I don't think anyone was impacted by its mechanics.

When you know all of the puzzles, puzzle rooms are just heal stops. When you have opportunities to meta in tech, you use an ioun stone slot to not roll saves for a room or use an ear slot to be completely immune to a room or whatever.

This gets into an area of talking past each other. When someone runs a dungeon only once and gets severely impacted by mechanics in ways that others don't, it feels bad, even if it's entirely fair to those who run multiple times and can adjust builds and actions to not be as affected.

Because I'm someone who runs VTD a lot, even gotcha mechanics don't matter as much to me as it will be interesting to bypass the challenge next time. Well, I run a lot plus I can easily modify builds for lots of different cases or just ignore certain things because, for instance, my default builds don't care about how many pluses you need to hit something.

It was starting with 2B where things suddenly felt much harder at higher levels of play. That's good for me. Because I'm not really arguing for what's good for me but what I think others might care about, I should probably not bother and just hope that NM/Epic never get easier. Well, that and my stop playing certain classes at Epic because it's too much work to feel like have a reasonable Epic build.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

DM Feedback 2 months 3 weeks ago #39

Ian Lee wrote: It was starting with 2B where things suddenly felt much harder at higher levels of play. That's good for me. Because I'm not really arguing for what's good for me but what I think others might care about, I should probably not bother and just hope that NM/Epic never get easier. Well, that and my stop playing certain classes at Epic because it's too much work to feel like have a reasonable Epic build.

I don't think anyone is advocating for Epic or NM to get easier. If the plan though is to move the difficulty up that would be nice to know. Again my group has played NM for years now. We found the combat on Hardcore to be about as difficult as NM years past. Gear is slowing getting better for all. And though they are far from purpled out there is a fair number or purples and few relics and a couple legendaries in the mix. Requiring a relic weapon at Nightmare seems excessive to me. But if that is the way Jeff and Co want it to go that is fine, I would just like to know before we go on a NM run and are surprised that none of the UR weapons work.
You either discover a star or you don't. You arrogant punk.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

DM Feedback 2 months 3 weeks ago #40

I wouldn't want a specific threshold like "you need to hit AC 30 for NM", but something like:

Hardcore: AC's typically 25-30
Nightmare: AC's typically 30-35
etc...

Same with save DC and Monster's +to hit.
All with the caveat that some encounters will be harder or easier than these guides. Give a starting point but leave a little mystery.

Then, if you break the "recommended" numbers at a difficulty level, adjust elsewhere. For example, a Monster that is much harder to hit has less HP, or a weakness to (ranged, bludgeoning, fire, whatever). If a save is very hard, make the penalty temporary. Want to force a save every single round? drop the difficulty on that one a bit. Heck, drop the difficulty each round. Or increase it!

Not to mention the design possibility of increasing difficulty in IRL dungeons by managing the size of the numbered areas.

Having a set of guidelines like this would help players balance their builds, manages expectations, and still leaves a LOT of design space.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by Dergidan.

DM Feedback 2 months 3 weeks ago #41

Something else that comes to mind relating to difficulty. I've gotten a lot of very low attack rolls, which certainly spices things up, but it does mean more variance than one might expect in PTD. Some of VTD getting harder was just not rolling 11-20 all of the time. Not that this is that meaningful if you are just comparing plums to plums, but it's a feature that attack rolls have a wide range.

I would imagine for those who want to simulate PTD closer, having an option of "paranoid" attack rolls versus "no riskit, no biscuit" attack rolls could increase consistency. Not that this necessarily solves any problem mentioned, but I could see reasons I might switch to "just need an 8 on this roll" mode where maybe 16-20 aren't even possibilities.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

DM Feedback 2 months 3 weeks ago #42

Dragon6483 wrote: It was most interesting for me that a poly druid with the legendary neck would not be able to hit (I had to borrow a weapon)....though I could have swapped to spell casting for that room and blown my good spells.


The Legendary neck didn't help a polymorphed Druid, but your melee weapon was supposed to be taken into account while polymorphed.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

DM Feedback 2 months 3 weeks ago #43

I know we've discussed on the forums ideas of general guidelines of gearing for the different difficulties.

However, when we had those discussions, I'm wondering if we all had the same picture in our minds for what those guidelines actually meant?

If you want to play difficulty X, here is roughly the level of tokens you should have...
* ...to have >0% chance at this difficulty level while spending lots of consumables
* ...to have a 50/50 shot at surviving to room 7 while spending few consumables
* ...to likely reach room 7 alive without spending any consumables
* ad infinitum other possibilities

Note: and then of course obviously we likely have different mindset to whether we're also factoring in things like experience at TD/D&D, whether you've got a team with good communication/teamwork, and other factors that can also influence this

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

DM Feedback 2 months 3 weeks ago #44

Good point Fiddy.

In my mind, it's roughly:

Can hit at least 50% of the time?
Will I make about 50% of my save rolls?
If the Monster attacks me, will it miss about 50% of the time?
or - if the monster is going to hit me most of the time, am I going to take more than half my HP in damage?

That to me feels like a good entry point, where I feel challenge and tension, can still participate meaningfully, and have room to improve.

In that situation, I assumed NM AC at about 30, and aimed for +15 hit. I let that go up and down if I need to buff another stat, and if we have a Bardsong or Prayer/Bless.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

DM Feedback 2 months 3 weeks ago #45

  • NightGod
  • NightGod's Avatar
  • Away
  • 8th Level
  • Supporter
  • It's only push damage...how bad could it be?!
  • Posts: 548

jedibcg banjo 2020 is the worst wrote: I don't even know where the difficulties on the website are any more.

Resources section on the TD page, Player's Handbook, pg. 9

Pick a Difficulty Level
Your party needs to decide what difficulty level (sometimes called challenge rating or challenge mode) you want to run. The default level is Normal. Playing on any other difficulty level requires a unanimous vote by the entire party. The difficulty levels are:
Non-lethal: This is for those who just want to enjoy the True Dungeon adventure without having to worry about their character dying. If your character dies, it will be resurrected with 1 HP when you enter the next room.
Normal: By default, all parties play their adventure on the Normal difficulty level. Characters can die on this difficulty, but a good party can emerge victorious with only basic equipment as long as they work well together and think on their feet.
Hardcore: This is for people who have some TD experience and at least three bags of tokens. Monsters hit harder, have more health, and are more likely to resist your spells.
Nightmare: This is only for people who have lots of TD experience, moxie, and plenty of tokens. Monsters hit much harder, have a lot more health, and are far more likely to resist your spells. Sometimes puzzle and combat mechanics are changed to make the encounters even more challenging. This is a very difficult event!

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by NightGod.

DM Feedback 2 months 3 weeks ago #46

Dergidan wrote: Good point Fiddy.

In my mind, it's roughly:

Can hit at least 50% of the time?
Will I make about 50% of my save rolls?
If the Monster attacks me, will it miss about 50% of the time?
or - if the monster is going to hit me most of the time, am I going to take more than half my HP in damage?

That to me feels like a good entry point, where I feel challenge and tension, can still participate meaningfully, and have room to improve.

In that situation, I assumed NM AC at about 30, and aimed for +15 hit. I let that go up and down if I need to buff another stat, and if we have a Bardsong or Prayer/Bless.

I believe even v3a room 3 NM if you only hit 50% would have been hitting 25%. If I recall our pali in v3a missed two saves and took 70% of his health in the yeti room which was enough to fall him, on hardcore. He also had 13’s for HC saves which should have been enough with a holy sword that allows a reroll. This while unfortunate was hilarious and now he has a yeti fear. And my token bag for a new player now has a resurrection mushroom in it.

In v3b we ran HC and NM and with loaner tokens had a great time both runs! We had the same DM both runs and the little old granny urn on the last run of the weekend was amazing. I don’t recall his name so that should let him know. Thanks to the golems as well, the golems were both incredibly helpful!

I know someone said it before, room 3 should have been possible, and maybe the mechanic just wasn’t found, for a team with only UR weapons; I would also point out, while we all hoped to have our rod of the meek, maybe not that one.
--
macXdmg
Monk of the Painda Order
Bard of the College of Sick Beats

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Time to create page: 0.195 seconds