Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me

TOPIC: DM Feedback

DM Feedback 2 months 3 weeks ago #25

Fiddy wrote:

NightGod wrote: I agree that the weapon requirement for NM seemed off.

I would have expected:
Rare+ (lv 0 spells not work) for HC
UR+ (lv 0/1 spells not work) for NM
Relic+ (lv 0,1,2 spells not work) for Epic

I was always under the impression that, in terms of gear, HC was targeted for basically all Rare with a UR or two, NM was for mostly UR with maybe a Relic and Epic was UR with Relics, Ethereal and Legendaries, but I admit this could be my personal misconception.


I think lowering the requirements to the ones you suggest would have meant that the mechanic would have had had almost 0 impact on combats (outside of challenge runs), as a majority of players playing those difficulties are already geared like that.


I think this (emphasis mine) perfectly illustrates that it's a fundamental design problem.

For any given player, arbitrary restrictions based on equipment will either:
1. have no impact (positive or negative), because they already have the right token
2. significantly reduce fun and leave a sour pay-to-win taste in their mouth

There is no circumstance in which this restriction makes the game better.

Nightgod's suggested tweak would move a lot of players from camp #2 into camp #1, which I agree is an improvement vs status quo, but an even better improvement would be to put everybody in camp #1 by never designing a room this way in the first place.

Lessening the penalty (e.g. insufficiently expensive weapon tokens deal half damage instead of doing nothing, or the various other mitigations I've seen proposed) make camp #2 less bad than it is now, but still bad. People not using fancy weapons already have an inherent comparative disadvantage, there's no need to rub salt in it.

I think RP things like "are you wearing heavy armor vs a robe" or "are you using blunt vs sharp weapons" can be interesting design choices, so long as they don't render players totally useless, and I like the way I've seen those things used in previous VTD. But arbitrary dividing lines which boil down to how much $$ did you spend on a particular slot X do not enhance fun and are not a good look for the game.

For the record I agree there is such a thing as being "underpowered for Nightmare" (for example), but this should emerge as a natural holistic consequence of your entire build and play strategy, not as a pass/fail evaluation of one single token slot.
dmrzzz's trade thread

Yes, my AC is lower than the Wizard's. No regrets!

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

DM Feedback 2 months 3 weeks ago #26

jedibcg banjo 2020 is the worst wrote: I would agree except that a +2 UR weapon should be adequate for NM runs, imo. We used to have a description of nightmare, somewhere on the website. I think the need for relic is not included in that description at all...though it might be no longer a valid description. snip HC usually is just too easy for us so we play on HC. Though they are not all purpled and reliced out there is enough good things on the build that traditionally NM is the correct level for us. This dungeon I am glad we stepped back to HC, but that feels wrong when I look at the builds.


I'm in a very similar spot with my group and looking over the builds makes me shake my head. I would like a updated official description of what's expected/needed for different difficulty (wasn't there an updated reference in PHB update?).
We did nightmare for both V3a and V3b and will likely step down to hardcore come V4b (not doing v4a). Some in group aren't far off BiS builds and others are a mix of URs/rares and we did fairly well in v1/v2 and hit a bad wall in v3a. We figured great we can meta a bit and enjoy and get that survivor pin in v3b and instead we failed again. Room 3 was a nasty and not welcome at all surprise to us.

I would like to see less individual saves or lose turn stuff or at least back to more group saves. Seemed to lose too much time in more than one instance.

I liked the DM's as a whole and the room # in the upper right is appreciated change. The tech just felt smoother overall which is a net positive.

I'm wanting to see how v4a is before i decide what difficulty to do with my group in v4b.
We're all the kind of people who enjoy the game on a "meta" level. We like talking about the game year-round. We buy tokens. We enjoy crafting. We get together during the off-season if we can. We are a very skewed demographic that way. -Raven

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

DM Feedback 2 months 3 weeks ago #27

In general, "save or miss a turn" has been a common element of dungeon design, going back to at least the Rothfuss dungeon year.

I personally think it is one of the better tools available to threaten the party. It is one of the few ways of making monsters more resilient that doesn't reward ever increasing player combat statistics (like increased monster HP/AC does), and also doesn't increase the chances of player death as much as ramping up monster damage output.

I'd advise getting each of your saves in the +12-22 range in order to take on Nightmare (and expect to fail 1/2 your saves with a +12).

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

DM Feedback 2 months 3 weeks ago #28

Save or miss a turn at the beginning of combat or sometime once in a combat doesn't bother me a lot. Every single round is really tiresome, not just for balance reasons.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

DM Feedback 2 months 3 weeks ago #29

Often (not always) when there is something that is save or miss a turn that affects the whole party, there are ways of dealing with it. Sometimes it is by spending an action to do something to protect your character (often the case for things that trigger every round). Sometimes it is by having a spellcaster cast a spell (like Bard Inspire).

And +1 to what Hayward said.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

DM Feedback 2 months 3 weeks ago #30

To me this is all about balance. Some people want to max out certain aspects of their character (like damage). And that's fine, but then you have to realize that you're going to sacrifice somewhere else. No, I agree you shouldn't necessarily be nerfing people for an entire combat, but I have no problem doing so for a round or in some cases two. If you're concerned about it, then modify your build. Get your save totals up to a higher level. Maybe that new awesome FOP Reaver isn't as awesome as FOP Pixie or Dragon which let you ignore a failed save. I think its good that max damage per round does not equal total max damage when you end up sitting out of a round or two. As a wizard, I basically had to choose between using a 3rd level spell or forego spellcasting in one combat. For one room, I was totally ok with that. I actually had to rethink my build and make sure I had contingencies. I view all of that as a good thing. Anyway, just my opinion.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

DM Feedback 2 months 3 weeks ago #31

Ian Lee wrote: Save or miss a turn at the beginning of combat or sometime once in a combat doesn't bother me a lot. Every single round is really tiresome, not just for balance reasons.


This. Exactly this.

I don't mind missing a turn here and there due to a failed save, but I came to play, not sit around for 12 minutes. These "save or lose your turn" every single round combats are not fun.

Once or maybe twice per dungeon is enough and is actually fun, because it adds tension and makes use of those stats. Too much and I feel like I've been tricked out of my ticket price.

I agree that there should be some sort of official guideline for requirements for different levels of difficulty, and if there is one, perhaps it needs updating. If I had any idea what the save DC's were, I would have warned my party that I would be near useless on Epic. On NM, I was about 50/50 on my worse saves and pretty good on my best saves. That felt right to me.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

DM Feedback 2 months 3 weeks ago #32

Giving a shout out to our DM's. They did a great job of describing the blows and effects on the monsters. This added to the overall dungeon experience. They also were very organized and varied the order of in which we attacked. They were very good about any requests from our group. They also had people shoot through the round even if an earlier blow killed the monster. These little things keep the magic going.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

DM Feedback 2 months 3 weeks ago #33

My thoughts as well.

As a Nightmare Cleric who is continuing the press towards Epic, the thresholds for AC, Health, and especially Saving Throws matters often a bit more than the extra 1-2 points of healing I might eek out, or anything I'm going to do swinging my Baton.

It's the same experience that happens when a melee beatstick of a character build meets a creature that needs to be targetted at Range.

When people want to play "Min/Max" they need to understand that they are intentionally building a weakness into their character. "Min/Max" does not mean "Maximize stat A and then hope that neglected stat B just never matters".

I do really wish that the different difficulties had a certain baseline that was more formally recognized. "To enter Nightmare, you should prepare to be able to hit AC28, you should have at least a 50% increase to what your starting hit points were, you should be prepared to make Saving Throws of a DC18, and you should have one alternative option to act, in case your primary action choice is being negated."

Especially by the time you are reaching Epic, you have been through enough runs to know that if your build is not versatile, you can cause failure by simply being unprepared to adapt to the challenges at hand.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

DM Feedback 2 months 3 weeks ago #34

Caleb M Davis wrote: I do really wish that the different difficulties had a certain baseline that was more formally recognized. "To enter Nightmare, you should prepare to be able to hit AC28, you should have at least a 50% increase to what your starting hit points were, you should be prepared to make Saving Throws of a DC18, and you should have one alternative option to act, in case your primary action choice is being negated."


I understand the desire people have for firm metrics around "NM ready" builds. But from experience with these sort of things, any firm baseline like this will result in even more complaints if you deviate even slightly. It also raises questions like "is that To Hit before or after buffs?" The more prescriptive you get, the more people tend to take those numbers absolutely literally :(

TBF, the PHB does spell out what you should expect from Nightmare (emphasis in the original):

PHB wrote: Nightmare: This is only for people who have lots of TD experience, moxie, and plenty of tokens. Monsters hit much harder, have a lot more health, and are far more likely to resist your spells. Sometimes puzzle and combat mechanics are changed to make the encounters even more challenging. This is a very difficult event!


The one nebulous part is "plenty of tokens", in that it doesn't overtly discuss rarity. But I think being more general like that description allows flexibility in encounter design. It's challenging. Be prepared for a challenge.

(Just not a challenge that's pay walled with OOP gear ;) )

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by Marc D.

DM Feedback 2 months 3 weeks ago #35

Marc D wrote: I understand the desire people have for firm metrics around "NM ready" builds. But from experience with these sort of things, any firm baseline like this will result in even more complaints if you deviate even slightly. It also raises questions like "is that To Hit before or after buffs?" The more prescriptive you get, the more people tend to take those numbers absolutely literally :(


I am not seeking any firm metrics. But if the idea is that you should have a relic weapon vs a UR or a Rare weapon, that should be noted. It was noted previously. And though I don't remember I thought Nightmare used to be some like some UR's and Rares and general knowledge of play.

I don't even know where the difficulties on the website are any more.
You either discover a star or you don't. You arrogant punk.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by jedibcg.

DM Feedback 2 months 3 weeks ago #36

It was most interesting for me that a poly druid with the legendary neck would not be able to hit (I had to borrow a weapon)....though I could have swapped to spell casting for that room and blown my good spells.
~Rebecca

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Time to create page: 0.194 seconds