TOPIC: READ THIS! Change to MEC and Details on Relic & Legendary

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: It'd be great if we could get some clarification on things like this.

Then again it'd be great if we could get a form of the Mad Evoker's Charm that's usable instead of this version. The cost is simply too high on this version to use it every turn like the existing one tends to be used.

It’s almost like it would have been better to just retire MEC or give it a non-damaging action, huh?

Smarmy attitude over a token you personally dislike being so badly destroyed that multiple players are quitting the game isn't a good look. You might want to reconsider the level of smarmy attitude you are pulling right now. This is not the time.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: It'd be great if we could get some clarification on things like this.

Then again it'd be great if we could get a form of the Mad Evoker's Charm that's usable instead of this version. The cost is simply too high on this version to use it every turn like the existing one tends to be used.

It’s almost like it would have been better to just retire MEC or give it a non-damaging action, huh?

Smarmy attitude over a token you personally dislike being so badly destroyed that multiple players are quitting the game isn't a good look. You might want to reconsider the level of smarmy attitude you are pulling right now. This is not the time.

Humor is an accepted coping mechanism and tool for grieving in psychology (it may seem extreme to equate the destruction of the class legendary to coping, but it is a negative experience, so it logically follows coping should - which to me is why we have seen shock, rationalization, and anger). You can discredit one person’s mechanisms as “a bad look” and continue to perpetuate toxic cultural traits. Or we can just accept we are both frustrated for different reasons.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: It'd be great if we could get some clarification on things like this.

Then again it'd be great if we could get a form of the Mad Evoker's Charm that's usable instead of this version. The cost is simply too high on this version to use it every turn like the existing one tends to be used.

It’s almost like it would have been better to just retire MEC or give it a non-damaging action, huh?

Smarmy attitude over a token you personally dislike being so badly destroyed that multiple players are quitting the game isn't a good look. You might want to reconsider the level of smarmy attitude you are pulling right now. This is not the time.

Multiple players are quitting the game over this? I agree MEC ability is more expensive, but the Relic/Legendary abilities seem great and only 5 HP each instead of the 15 of the earlier version. In every room you can cast your best spell without marking it off, fork a spell, cast a spell as an Free Action, etc., And you can combine them. Plus Jeff said there would be additional Mage Powers added over time, so it will get better and more versatile.

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: It'd be great if we could get some clarification on things like this.

Then again it'd be great if we could get a form of the Mad Evoker's Charm that's usable instead of this version. The cost is simply too high on this version to use it every turn like the existing one tends to be used.

It’s almost like it would have been better to just retire MEC or give it a non-damaging action, huh?

Smarmy attitude over a token you personally dislike being so badly destroyed that multiple players are quitting the game isn't a good look. You might want to reconsider the level of smarmy attitude you are pulling right now. This is not the time.

Multiple players are quitting the game over this? I agree MEC ability is more expensive, but the Relic/Legendary abilities seem great and only 5 HP each instead of the 15 of the earlier version. In every room you can cast your best spell without marking it off, fork a spell, cast a spell as an Free Action, etc., And you can combine them. Plus Jeff said there would be additional Mage Powers added over time, so it will get better and more versatile.

Mike, you misread these.

“ Arch-Mage Power/Mage Power modifications may, if desired,
be used on a spell whose damage was boosted by the MAD
EVOKER’S CHARM effect.”

AMP/MP can only be used on a spell you MEC. So every AMP is actually a cost of 25+5X where X is the number of AMP used on that one spell.

The old iteration was 15+ damage, where the wizard decided the amount and the minimum was 15.

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: It'd be great if we could get some clarification on things like this.

Then again it'd be great if we could get a form of the Mad Evoker's Charm that's usable instead of this version. The cost is simply too high on this version to use it every turn like the existing one tends to be used.

It’s almost like it would have been better to just retire MEC or give it a non-damaging action, huh?

Smarmy attitude over a token you personally dislike being so badly destroyed that multiple players are quitting the game isn't a good look. You might want to reconsider the level of smarmy attitude you are pulling right now. This is not the time.

Multiple players are quitting the game over this? I agree MEC ability is more expensive, but the Relic/Legendary abilities seem great and only 5 HP each instead of the 15 of the earlier version. In every room you can cast your best spell without marking it off, fork a spell, cast a spell as an Free Action, etc., And you can combine them. Plus Jeff said there would be additional Mage Powers added over time, so it will get better and more versatile.

YES.

At least one Wizard is currently selling his entire collection due to a negative feeling about the way the Wizard class has been treated.

At least two others have indicated strong feelings toward either abandoning the class or abandoning the game altogether, also citing the general negative attitude towards Wizards in token design and the extremely negative path the class Legendary Necklace took over this design cycle.

There seems to be a general feeling of 'why bother to care' when it comes to Wizard token design.

We hoped this year would create something truly awesome and unique for the class. Instead one of our core tokens was nerfed to the point of being unusable and our class necklace was designed around the newly maligned token.

I for one am at the point of why care.

I look at the Barbarian necklace, then the Monk necklace, then the Cleric and Fighter. Then I look at Wizard necklace and I just feel sad.

The Mad Evoker's Charm was damaged beyond repair.

The Class Relic is usable on average of 1 attack per room.
The Class Legendary is usable on average of maybe 2.

Then the necklace is a paperweight for the rest of the combat.

That is the shittiest feeling I have had in true dungeon in a long, long time.

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: It'd be great if we could get some clarification on things like this.

Then again it'd be great if we could get a form of the Mad Evoker's Charm that's usable instead of this version. The cost is simply too high on this version to use it every turn like the existing one tends to be used.

It’s almost like it would have been better to just retire MEC or give it a non-damaging action, huh?

Smarmy attitude over a token you personally dislike being so badly destroyed that multiple players are quitting the game isn't a good look. You might want to reconsider the level of smarmy attitude you are pulling right now. This is not the time.

Multiple players are quitting the game over this? I agree MEC ability is more expensive, but the Relic/Legendary abilities seem great and only 5 HP each instead of the 15 of the earlier version. In every room you can cast your best spell without marking it off, fork a spell, cast a spell as an Free Action, etc., And you can combine them. Plus Jeff said there would be additional Mage Powers added over time, so it will get better and more versatile.

Mike, you misread these.

“ Arch-Mage Power/Mage Power modifications may, if desired,
be used on a spell whose damage was boosted by the MAD
EVOKER’S CHARM effect.”

AMP/MP can only be used on a spell you MEC. So every AMP is actually a cost of 25+5X where X is the number of AMP used on that one spell.

The old iteration was 15+ damage, where the wizard decided the amount and the minimum was 15.

Actually you're the one misreading I think Anthony. The entire paragraph before that sentence talks about using Mage Powers on spells and follows with the fact that you may use it on a spell that has been Mad Evokered. Does not seem to indicate you must mad evoker the spell to use a mage power.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: It'd be great if we could get some clarification on things like this.

Then again it'd be great if we could get a form of the Mad Evoker's Charm that's usable instead of this version. The cost is simply too high on this version to use it every turn like the existing one tends to be used.

It’s almost like it would have been better to just retire MEC or give it a non-damaging action, huh?

Smarmy attitude over a token you personally dislike being so badly destroyed that multiple players are quitting the game isn't a good look. You might want to reconsider the level of smarmy attitude you are pulling right now. This is not the time.

Multiple players are quitting the game over this? I agree MEC ability is more expensive, but the Relic/Legendary abilities seem great and only 5 HP each instead of the 15 of the earlier version. In every room you can cast your best spell without marking it off, fork a spell, cast a spell as an Free Action, etc., And you can combine them. Plus Jeff said there would be additional Mage Powers added over time, so it will get better and more versatile.

Mike, you misread these.

“ Arch-Mage Power/Mage Power modifications may, if desired,
be used on a spell whose damage was boosted by the MAD
EVOKER’S CHARM effect.”

AMP/MP can only be used on a spell you MEC. So every AMP is actually a cost of 25+5X where X is the number of AMP used on that one spell.

The old iteration was 15+ damage, where the wizard decided the amount and the minimum was 15.

Actually you're the one misreading I think Anthony. The entire paragraph before that sentence talks about using Mage Powers on spells and follows with the fact that you may use it on a spell that has been Mad Evokered. Does not seem to indicate you must mad evoker the spell to use a mage power.

I certainly hope he misread it. I took it that MEC was an option, not a requirement to use M/AM powers. If it is required, then in my opinion that kills the relic/legendary. And requiring a minimum 30 hp cost to use these tokens is beyond reasonable.

As it is, I personally reject the notion that the current path creates a "glass cannon". You may become "glass" after a couple of rounds of casting, but if you start out with low hp, then you simply won't be able to use the M/AM powers effectively. My approach will be to start as a sturdy, resilient wizard and then by room 6 or 7 start using a variety of effects that may lower me to the level of "glass". But by then I likely won't be the only player in need of healing.

Certainly, its a viable option to start with lower hp and trust your party to keep you afloat, but one round of spell casting and a good monster hit may put you on the disabled list. And if there are two wizards in the party looking for 30-50 hp of healing after every combat, plus healing from any failed puzzle tries, that will put a strain on the entire party to support.

I certainly don’t plan to put a horse in this little conversation but I do want to point out what will happen in the future...

In v2a we have a run where a mega powered MEC user will be unable to use his powers without some serious sacrifice because the cleric is not toting the necessary healing at the current rate of use for MEC...

...when this new thing here goes in for 2021, the user of these tokens in that same run will need to know and identify clearly who the healers are or risk not being able to use their power at all for the run. For that run, the cleric and Druid will be completely overpowered for healing demands and reduce the team to ashes because there won’t be enough heals to go around and the cleric will simply say no.

This will turn off players very fast to have literally clerics and druids refusing to heal the wizard because they want to spend their 25HP in this way.

I can tell you this, there is way too much assumption around the wizard-healing synergies and this could very much backfire as the community of clerics can literally take a stand and refuse to heal...

I remember some thread somewhere mention that player griefing was designed out of the game but this could very quickly be turned into player griefing

Let’s face it, players actively leaving the wizard for various reasons and let’s suppose real zealots opposed to MEC became a powerful cleric and go into a dungeon in a fresh formed group...and simply decide not to heal the wizard if they used their 25HP power because it would hurt their overall ability to heal others in the team.
Slippery slope indeed...

I still haven't seen an argument that makes me think the idea I threw out a while back is unworkable.
MEC - Increase spell damage by 1 for every 1 hp channeled. Maximum is tied to bonus spell damage. In other words, you can pick any number to use, 1, 2, 5, 10 or even 35, but you give up 1 hp for every point of damage and you can't channel more than your bonus damage (so you have a cap, but its not static). Lower geared groups that happen to have MEC can use it for a lower number of damage. They probably don't have a lot spell bonus damage, but then their clerics and druids can probably keep up with the healing.

At nightmare/legendary levels, yes, the wizards can get their bonus damage up to 35, but it would cost them 35 hp to use and to get that level of bonus damage they are not going to have more than around 60hp. They can only get more hp by giving up spell damage, thus lowering their cap. Each wizard will get to pick a comfort level in balancing hp versus spell damage. But if they only want to do 20 pts of bonus damage, then it only costs them 20 hp. The decision is up to the wizard and can be adjusted based on party healing capabilities.

I also liked this idea because as power creep continues its very easy to adjust what the wizard can do through new tokens and you won't have to constantly adjust their character card. Spell damage seems to naturally go up 1 or 2 per year due to annual power creep and hp caps seem to go up at least 5-10 per year. But you will always have the dynamic of having to choose how to use your slots---spell damage or hp. You will NOT be able to max out on both.

Anyway, it was just a thought that still seems better than where we ended up.

Dave wrote: I still haven't seen an argument that makes me think the idea I threw out a while back is unworkable.
MEC - Increase spell damage by 1 for every 1 hp channeled. Maximum is tied to bonus spell damage. In other words, you can pick any number to use, 1, 2, 5, 10 or even 35, but you give up 1 hp for every point of damage and you can't channel more than your bonus damage (so you have a cap, but its not static). Lower geared groups that happen to have MEC can use it for a lower number of damage. They probably don't have a lot spell bonus damage, but then their clerics and druids can probably keep up with the healing.

At nightmare/legendary levels, yes, the wizards can get their bonus damage up to 35, but it would cost them 35 hp to use and to get that level of bonus damage they are not going to have more than around 60hp. They can only get more hp by giving up spell damage, thus lowering their cap. Each wizard will get to pick a comfort level in balancing hp versus spell damage. But if they only want to do 20 pts of bonus damage, then it only costs them 20 hp. The decision is up to the wizard and can be adjusted based on party healing capabilities.

I also liked this idea because as power creep continues its very easy to adjust what the wizard can do through new tokens and you won't have to constantly adjust their character card. Spell damage seems to naturally go up 1 or 2 per year due to annual power creep and hp caps seem to go up at least 5-10 per year. But you will always have the dynamic of having to choose how to use your slots---spell damage or hp. You will NOT be able to max out on both.

Anyway, it was just a thought that still seems better than where we ended up.

1:1 channeling would be ok in my mind at this point.

1:1 channeling with a limit of current +spell damage would be OK

10HP to double base damage with a 10% MAX HP loss for equipping would be OK for me.

25HP doubles ALL damage instead of base I could potentially get behind but honestly that's a nasty slippery slope and I would much rather see the 1:1 channeling than a static 25hp to use. It allows the Wizard to be exactly as mad as they feel is appropriate.

If the 1:1 channeling comes back and the Relic/Legendary powers stay at 5HP cost that would be good.

The 1/room limitation needs to go tho. No other Class Legendary is limited to single use effects and this restriction means the Legendary Necklace gives no benefit past turn 1, possibly turn 2 of combat. That's just not a good design.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Dave wrote: I still haven't seen an argument that makes me think the idea I threw out a while back is unworkable.
MEC - Increase spell damage by 1 for every 1 hp channeled. Maximum is tied to bonus spell damage. In other words, you can pick any number to use, 1, 2, 5, 10 or even 35, but you give up 1 hp for every point of damage and you can't channel more than your bonus damage (so you have a cap, but its not static). Lower geared groups that happen to have MEC can use it for a lower number of damage. They probably don't have a lot spell bonus damage, but then their clerics and druids can probably keep up with the healing.

At nightmare/legendary levels, yes, the wizards can get their bonus damage up to 35, but it would cost them 35 hp to use and to get that level of bonus damage they are not going to have more than around 60hp. They can only get more hp by giving up spell damage, thus lowering their cap. Each wizard will get to pick a comfort level in balancing hp versus spell damage. But if they only want to do 20 pts of bonus damage, then it only costs them 20 hp. The decision is up to the wizard and can be adjusted based on party healing capabilities.

I also liked this idea because as power creep continues its very easy to adjust what the wizard can do through new tokens and you won't have to constantly adjust their character card. Spell damage seems to naturally go up 1 or 2 per year due to annual power creep and hp caps seem to go up at least 5-10 per year. But you will always have the dynamic of having to choose how to use your slots---spell damage or hp. You will NOT be able to max out on both.

Anyway, it was just a thought that still seems better than where we ended up.

1:1 channeling would be ok in my mind at this point.

1:1 channeling with a limit of current +spell damage would be OK

10HP to double base damage with a 10% MAX HP loss for equipping would be OK for me.

25HP doubles ALL damage instead of base I could potentially get behind but honestly that's a nasty slippery slope and I would much rather see the 1:1 channeling than a static 25hp to use. It allows the Wizard to be exactly as mad as they feel is appropriate.

If the 1:1 channeling comes back and the Relic/Legendary powers stay at 5HP cost that would be good.

The 1/room limitation needs to go tho. No other Class Legendary is limited to single use effects and this restriction means the Legendary Necklace gives no benefit past turn 1, possibly turn 2 of combat. That's just not a good design.

So, the rogue legendary only affects sneak attacks, so 2/room. BUT the effect is REALLY good.

I think the mage powers would be fine if the wizards base spells were better.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: It'd be great if we could get some clarification on things like this.

Then again it'd be great if we could get a form of the Mad Evoker's Charm that's usable instead of this version. The cost is simply too high on this version to use it every turn like the existing one tends to be used.

It’s almost like it would have been better to just retire MEC or give it a non-damaging action, huh?

Smarmy attitude over a token you personally dislike being so badly destroyed that multiple players are quitting the game isn't a good look. You might want to reconsider the level of smarmy attitude you are pulling right now. This is not the time.

Multiple players are quitting the game over this? I agree MEC ability is more expensive, but the Relic/Legendary abilities seem great and only 5 HP each instead of the 15 of the earlier version. In every room you can cast your best spell without marking it off, fork a spell, cast a spell as an Free Action, etc., And you can combine them. Plus Jeff said there would be additional Mage Powers added over time, so it will get better and more versatile.

At least one Wizard is currently selling his entire collection due to a negative feeling about the way the Wizard class has been treated.

At least two others have indicated strong feelings toward either abandoning the class or abandoning the game altogether, also citing the general negative attitude towards Wizards in token design and the extremely negative path the class Legendary Necklace took over this design cycle.

To chime in on this:

I've been playing the wizard class since my second game, so I think about seven years now. I've tried the other classes at least once over the years, just to see how they play, but wizard is pretty much where I started and wizard is where I stay.

That being said I've been taking a long hard look at my tokens to see if I could easily jump to another spell casting class.

The entire route that the wizard tokens have taken this year has just left a negative feeling. I look at the other class legendaries and feel like my class is nerfed not only in its use but also in the fact that it is tied to other classes (the healers) to be able to use effectively. Where other classes get to have and use their legendary tokens pretty freely, I feel like as the wizard I have to get permission from the party to use mine. I could take care of myself by using healing potions, but I would burn through the supply quickly, which wouldn't be fair to my husband as he also uses them from time to time. I could buy more, but that leaves a sour taste in my mouth because why should I have to buy more tokens in order to use this legendary item that already took so many transmute pieces to make?