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TOPIC: 2021 Ultra Rare Almost Final!

2021 Ultra Rare Almost Final! 1 year 3 months ago #85

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm a bit worried about the Ring of Quick Prayer, as Free Action spell with full damage modifiers has so far:

a. Never been class locked.
b. Been limited to 1/game (RoSS), or 1/room (Cabal Set)

This token has no frequency limitations.

I'm worried that a BiS Druid who builds towards Polymorph Melee but still has a spell bonus of say, +20 gets to tack on a 28 point Freezing Orb every round for 10 rounds (with charm of spell swapping). I think they might end up outdamaging Fighters or Barbarians (Druids get Keen polymorph for the 19-20 crit range and +5 damage when polymorphed).

Put another way: A BiS melee Fighter/Barbarian will need to be dealing ~30 more points a round than Polymorph/Melee Druid to keep up with a FA 28 point Freezing Orb.

I'll plan to run the numbers on that tomorrow.

My thought would be to do one of:

1. Make the spells that can be cast as a FA healing spells.
2. Make the spells that can be cast as a FA be non-damage spells.
3. Limit the ring to 1/room.
4. Add Wizards to the ring, in which case it's fine as is :P


TL:DR; BiS Poly/Melee Focused Druids can get 200-300 damage over 7-10 rounds of combat by casting Free Action Freezing Orbs. A melee-polymorph focused BiS Druid will do the same damage as a BiS barbarian due to this ring.

As promised!

Here is a BiS Druid building towards Polymorph + Maximizing Level 1 spell casts as a free action with the Free Action ring casting Freezing Orb.

The build has room for all 4 treasure Iouns, and Charm of Avarice.

Important details:
Melee hit 20: With VTD this is auto-hitting on 2+ on d10 vs. Nightmare AC (and most Epic AC, most likely all with Prayer/Bardsong).

Damage while Polymorphed: +47, average damage wheel from Iktomi's: 9.5. Crit range 19-20.

Spell damage: +20, spell swap 7 higher level spells into Freezing Orb.

Expected damage over 10 rounds, using VTD rules:

Melee:
10 rounds * ( 47 poly damage + 9.5 weapon damage ) * ( 0.7 hit chance + 2*0.2 crit chance ) = 621
Free Action Freezing Orbs:
10 casts * ( 8 freezing orb + 20 spell damage) = 280

Druid Total: 901 (931 if you pass skill tests on Freezing Orb)

This Druid also has a healing bonus of +15 (Cavadar will bump to 17), and 4 cure minor and 2 cure light, so they get to dish out:

4*(1+15 cure minor) + 2*(5 or 8 + 15 cure light) = 144 points of healing over the adventure on top of that.




By comparison Trentus the Barbarian has a to-hit of 22, melee damage of +60. 12.83 average weapon damage.

Room 1: 3 rounds * ( 60 + 12.83 ) * ( 0.8 hit chance + 2*0.1 crit chance ) = 218

Room 2, Rage: 3 rounds * ( 60 + 12.83 + 6 ) * ( 0.8 hit chance + 2*0.1 crit chance ) = 236

Room 3, 2nd Rage:
Round 1, 2 - use Fury: 2 * ( 60 + 12.83 + 6 ) * ( 2*0.9 crit chance ) = 284
Round 3, 4 - 2 * ( 60 + 12.83 + 6 ) * ( 0.8 hit chance + 2*0.1 crit chance ) = 158

Barbarian Total: 896




Given that Druids are very versatile, I do not thing it is right that they can choose to build to melee parity with Barbarians, while also being able to choose to build build to at or very near healing parity with Clerics.

Suggestions: Make the free action ring non-damage spells, or healing only spells, or 1/room.




Trentus:
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=561&id=250857&start=0

Druid build:

Dearshul - Destroyer of Worlds
Class: Druid

STR: 34
DEX: 14
CON: 16
INT: 11
WIS: 19
CHA: 15

Melee:
Hit: 20 Damage: 33 AC: 22

Range:
Hit: 2 Damage: 11 AC: 22 Missle AC: 0

Spell:
Damage: 20 Heal: 15 Resist: 0

Saves:
Reflex: 4 Fort: 8 Will: 9

Treasure:
Min: 3 Max: 3

Health: 41

Damage Reduction:
MeleeRangeSpellFireColdShockSonicEldritchPoisonDarkriftSacred
00000000000

Melee Mainhand: Drue’s +5 Baton of Focus
Melee Offhand: Brawler’s Mug (Rare)
Ranged Mainhand: Empty
Ranged Offhand: Empty
Head: Crown of Might
Eyes: Goggles of Instant Analysis
Left Ear: Arcane Earcuff
Right Ear: Earcuff of Orbits
Neck: Iktomi’s Shaper Necklace
Bead: EmptyTorso: Sill’s Anointed Redoubt Mail
Wrist: Bracers of Guided Strike
Hands: Gloves of the Brute
Back: EmptyRing: Ring of the Drake
Ring: Ring of the Eel
Waist: Surtr’s Girdle of Fire Giant Strength
Shirt: Shirt of Focus
Legs: Kilt of Dungeonbane - Strength
Shins: EmptyBoots: Boots of the Four Winds
Figurine: EmptyCharm: Charm of Glory
Charm: Charm of Spell Swapping
Charm: Draco-Lich Claw Charm
Charm: Greater Onyx Charm
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Infernal Fire Prism
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Jasper Ellipsoid
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Onyx Cube
Slotless: Rod of Seven Parts
Slotless: Gregor’s Tome of Focus
Runestone: Empty
Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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2021 Ultra Rare Almost Final! 1 year 3 months ago #86

I'm a little surprised that I haven't seen more push back on the Ring of Quick Prayer. Just remember that with Ring of Spell Storing and Crown of expertise, that's a lot of extra spells and is actually superior to the power of the Legendary for Wizards
Please visit my fledgling token store.
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=583&id=247486
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2021 Ultra Rare Almost Final! 1 year 3 months ago #87

Bob Chasan wrote: I'm a little surprised that I haven't seen more push back on the Ring of Quick Prayer. Just remember that with Ring of Spell Storing and Crown of expertise, that's a lot of extra spells and is actually superior to the power of the Legendary for Wizards


I haven't run the numbers, but I'm inclined to agree (I guess it depends on how the ranged stuff shakes out).

A level 1 spell as a FA each round in the Ring Slot might be better for many wizards than the current legendary.
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2021 Ultra Rare Almost Final! 1 year 3 months ago #88

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote: I'm a little surprised that I haven't seen more push back on the Ring of Quick Prayer. Just remember that with Ring of Spell Storing and Crown of expertise, that's a lot of extra spells and is actually superior to the power of the Legendary for Wizards


I haven't run the numbers, but I'm inclined to agree (I guess it depends on how the ranged stuff shakes out).

A level 1 spell as a FA each round in the Ring Slot might be better for many wizards than the current legendary.


Yep. I would LOVE all level 1 spells as free actions. That would be amazing for Wizards
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2021 Ultra Rare Almost Final! 1 year 3 months ago #89

Bob Chasan wrote: I'm a little surprised that I haven't seen more push back on the Ring of Quick Prayer. Just remember that with Ring of Spell Storing and Crown of expertise, that's a lot of extra spells and is actually superior to the power of the Legendary for Wizards


It is 0 extra spells. It is faster spells.

For a Cleric it means they can contribute a bit more. For Druids it means they can be Destroyer of Worlds. (Name of Hayward's Druid in case you missed it).

The reason you don't see Clerics speaking up is probably that we're afraid it'll get nerfed for us instead of just taking the Druids back off of it.
Last edit: by Fiddy.
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2021 Ultra Rare Almost Final! 1 year 3 months ago #90

Fiddy wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote: I'm a little surprised that I haven't seen more push back on the Ring of Quick Prayer. Just remember that with Ring of Spell Storing and Crown of expertise, that's a lot of extra spells and is actually superior to the power of the Legendary for Wizards


It is 0 extra spells. It is faster spells.

For a Cleric it means they can contribute a bit more. For Druids it means they can be Destroyer of Worlds. (Name of Hayward's Druid in case you missed it).

The reason you don't see Clerics speaking up is probably that we're afraid it'll get nerfed for us instead of just taking the Druids back off of it.


I've left it alone because, for Clerics it's a solid token that gives them more to do in combat.

I think having Druids on it is a bad idea. But I don't want to see Clerics lose their cool UR like Wizards just did with our spellbook.
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2021 Ultra Rare Almost Final! 1 year 3 months ago #91

Is Nightshade's +2 Throwing Dagger usable with Flurry of Blows?
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2021 Ultra Rare Almost Final! 1 year 3 months ago #92

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm a bit worried about the Ring of Quick Prayer, as Free Action spell with full damage modifiers has so far:

a. Never been class locked.
b. Been limited to 1/game (RoSS), or 1/room (Cabal Set)

This token has no frequency limitations.

I'm worried that a BiS Druid who builds towards Polymorph Melee but still has a spell bonus of say, +20 gets to tack on a 28 point Freezing Orb every round for 10 rounds (with charm of spell swapping). I think they might end up outdamaging Fighters or Barbarians (Druids get Keen polymorph for the 19-20 crit range and +5 damage when polymorphed).

Put another way: A BiS melee Fighter/Barbarian will need to be dealing ~30 more points a round than Polymorph/Melee Druid to keep up with a FA 28 point Freezing Orb.

I'll plan to run the numbers on that tomorrow.

My thought would be to do one of:

1. Make the spells that can be cast as a FA healing spells.
2. Make the spells that can be cast as a FA be non-damage spells.
3. Limit the ring to 1/room.
4. Add Wizards to the ring, in which case it's fine as is :P


TL:DR; BiS Poly/Melee Focused Druids can get 200-300 damage over 7-10 rounds of combat by casting Free Action Freezing Orbs. A melee-polymorph focused BiS Druid will do the same damage as a BiS barbarian due to this ring.

As promised!

Here is a BiS Druid building towards Polymorph + Maximizing Level 1 spell casts as a free action with the Free Action ring casting Freezing Orb.

The build has room for all 4 treasure Iouns, and Charm of Avarice.

Important details:
Melee hit 20: With VTD this is auto-hitting on 2+ on d10 vs. Nightmare AC (and most Epic AC, most likely all with Prayer/Bardsong).

Damage while Polymorphed: +47, average damage wheel from Iktomi's: 9.5. Crit range 19-20.

Spell damage: +20, spell swap 7 higher level spells into Freezing Orb.

Expected damage over 10 rounds, using VTD rules:

Melee:
10 rounds * ( 47 poly damage + 9.5 weapon damage ) * ( 0.7 hit chance + 2*0.2 crit chance ) = 621
Free Action Freezing Orbs:
10 casts * ( 8 freezing orb + 20 spell damage) = 280

Druid Total: 901 (931 if you pass skill tests on Freezing Orb)

This Druid also has a healing bonus of +15 (Cavadar will bump to 17), and 4 cure minor and 2 cure light, so they get to dish out:

4*(1+15 cure minor) + 2*(5 or 8 + 15 cure light) = 144 points of healing over the adventure on top of that.




By comparison Trentus the Barbarian has a to-hit of 22, melee damage of +60. 12.83 average weapon damage.

Room 1: 3 rounds * ( 60 + 12.83 ) * ( 0.8 hit chance + 2*0.1 crit chance ) = 218

Room 2, Rage: 3 rounds * ( 60 + 12.83 + 6 ) * ( 0.8 hit chance + 2*0.1 crit chance ) = 236

Room 3, 2nd Rage:
Round 1, 2 - use Fury: 2 * ( 60 + 12.83 + 6 ) * ( 2*0.9 crit chance ) = 284
Round 3, 4 - 2 * ( 60 + 12.83 + 6 ) * ( 0.8 hit chance + 2*0.1 crit chance ) = 158

Barbarian Total: 896




Given that Druids are very versatile, I do not thing it is right that they can choose to build to melee parity with Barbarians, while also being able to choose to build build to at or very near healing parity with Clerics.

Suggestions: Make the free action ring non-damage spells, or healing only spells, or 1/room.




Trentus:
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=561&id=250857&start=0

Druid build:

Dearshul - Destroyer of Worlds
Class: Druid

STR: 34
DEX: 14
CON: 16
INT: 11
WIS: 19
CHA: 15

Melee:
Hit: 20 Damage: 33 AC: 22

Range:
Hit: 2 Damage: 11 AC: 22 Missle AC: 0

Spell:
Damage: 20 Heal: 15 Resist: 0

Saves:
Reflex: 4 Fort: 8 Will: 9

Treasure:
Min: 3 Max: 3

Health: 41

Damage Reduction:
MeleeRangeSpellFireColdShockSonicEldritchPoisonDarkriftSacred
00000000000

Melee Mainhand: Drue’s +5 Baton of Focus
Melee Offhand: Brawler’s Mug (Rare)
Ranged Mainhand: Empty
Ranged Offhand: Empty
Head: Crown of Might
Eyes: Goggles of Instant Analysis
Left Ear: Arcane Earcuff
Right Ear: Earcuff of Orbits
Neck: Iktomi’s Shaper Necklace
Bead: EmptyTorso: Sill’s Anointed Redoubt Mail
Wrist: Bracers of Guided Strike
Hands: Gloves of the Brute
Back: EmptyRing: Ring of the Drake
Ring: Ring of the Eel
Waist: Surtr’s Girdle of Fire Giant Strength
Shirt: Shirt of Focus
Legs: Kilt of Dungeonbane - Strength
Shins: EmptyBoots: Boots of the Four Winds
Figurine: EmptyCharm: Charm of Glory
Charm: Charm of Spell Swapping
Charm: Draco-Lich Claw Charm
Charm: Greater Onyx Charm
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Infernal Fire Prism
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Jasper Ellipsoid
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Onyx Cube
Slotless: Rod of Seven Parts
Slotless: Gregor’s Tome of Focus
Runestone: Empty


So Druids average about 90 points of damage over 10 turns in a max build. How much damage do Wizards do with all the current tokens over 10 turns? I think it's a lot more than 900. Why is it unacceptable for the Druid to even be in the same damage dealing vicinity as the Wizard? The bias towards Druids in these threads gets pretty tiring.
The topic has been locked.

2021 Ultra Rare Almost Final! 1 year 3 months ago #93

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm a bit worried about the Ring of Quick Prayer, as Free Action spell with full damage modifiers has so far:

a. Never been class locked.
b. Been limited to 1/game (RoSS), or 1/room (Cabal Set)

This token has no frequency limitations.

I'm worried that a BiS Druid who builds towards Polymorph Melee but still has a spell bonus of say, +20 gets to tack on a 28 point Freezing Orb every round for 10 rounds (with charm of spell swapping). I think they might end up outdamaging Fighters or Barbarians (Druids get Keen polymorph for the 19-20 crit range and +5 damage when polymorphed).

Put another way: A BiS melee Fighter/Barbarian will need to be dealing ~30 more points a round than Polymorph/Melee Druid to keep up with a FA 28 point Freezing Orb.

I'll plan to run the numbers on that tomorrow.

My thought would be to do one of:

1. Make the spells that can be cast as a FA healing spells.
2. Make the spells that can be cast as a FA be non-damage spells.
3. Limit the ring to 1/room.
4. Add Wizards to the ring, in which case it's fine as is :P


TL:DR; BiS Poly/Melee Focused Druids can get 200-300 damage over 7-10 rounds of combat by casting Free Action Freezing Orbs. A melee-polymorph focused BiS Druid will do the same damage as a BiS barbarian due to this ring.

As promised!

Here is a BiS Druid building towards Polymorph + Maximizing Level 1 spell casts as a free action with the Free Action ring casting Freezing Orb.

The build has room for all 4 treasure Iouns, and Charm of Avarice.

Important details:
Melee hit 20: With VTD this is auto-hitting on 2+ on d10 vs. Nightmare AC (and most Epic AC, most likely all with Prayer/Bardsong).

Damage while Polymorphed: +47, average damage wheel from Iktomi's: 9.5. Crit range 19-20.

Spell damage: +20, spell swap 7 higher level spells into Freezing Orb.

Expected damage over 10 rounds, using VTD rules:

Melee:
10 rounds * ( 47 poly damage + 9.5 weapon damage ) * ( 0.7 hit chance + 2*0.2 crit chance ) = 621
Free Action Freezing Orbs:
10 casts * ( 8 freezing orb + 20 spell damage) = 280

Druid Total: 901 (931 if you pass skill tests on Freezing Orb)

This Druid also has a healing bonus of +15 (Cavadar will bump to 17), and 4 cure minor and 2 cure light, so they get to dish out:

4*(1+15 cure minor) + 2*(5 or 8 + 15 cure light) = 144 points of healing over the adventure on top of that.




By comparison Trentus the Barbarian has a to-hit of 22, melee damage of +60. 12.83 average weapon damage.

Room 1: 3 rounds * ( 60 + 12.83 ) * ( 0.8 hit chance + 2*0.1 crit chance ) = 218

Room 2, Rage: 3 rounds * ( 60 + 12.83 + 6 ) * ( 0.8 hit chance + 2*0.1 crit chance ) = 236

Room 3, 2nd Rage:
Round 1, 2 - use Fury: 2 * ( 60 + 12.83 + 6 ) * ( 2*0.9 crit chance ) = 284
Round 3, 4 - 2 * ( 60 + 12.83 + 6 ) * ( 0.8 hit chance + 2*0.1 crit chance ) = 158

Barbarian Total: 896




Given that Druids are very versatile, I do not thing it is right that they can choose to build to melee parity with Barbarians, while also being able to choose to build build to at or very near healing parity with Clerics.

Suggestions: Make the free action ring non-damage spells, or healing only spells, or 1/room.




Trentus:
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=561&id=250857&start=0

Druid build:

Dearshul - Destroyer of Worlds
Class: Druid

STR: 34
DEX: 14
CON: 16
INT: 11
WIS: 19
CHA: 15

Melee:
Hit: 20 Damage: 33 AC: 22

Range:
Hit: 2 Damage: 11 AC: 22 Missle AC: 0

Spell:
Damage: 20 Heal: 15 Resist: 0

Saves:
Reflex: 4 Fort: 8 Will: 9

Treasure:
Min: 3 Max: 3

Health: 41

Damage Reduction:
MeleeRangeSpellFireColdShockSonicEldritchPoisonDarkriftSacred
00000000000

Melee Mainhand: Drue’s +5 Baton of Focus
Melee Offhand: Brawler’s Mug (Rare)
Ranged Mainhand: Empty
Ranged Offhand: Empty
Head: Crown of Might
Eyes: Goggles of Instant Analysis
Left Ear: Arcane Earcuff
Right Ear: Earcuff of Orbits
Neck: Iktomi’s Shaper Necklace
Bead: EmptyTorso: Sill’s Anointed Redoubt Mail
Wrist: Bracers of Guided Strike
Hands: Gloves of the Brute
Back: EmptyRing: Ring of the Drake
Ring: Ring of the Eel
Waist: Surtr’s Girdle of Fire Giant Strength
Shirt: Shirt of Focus
Legs: Kilt of Dungeonbane - Strength
Shins: EmptyBoots: Boots of the Four Winds
Figurine: EmptyCharm: Charm of Glory
Charm: Charm of Spell Swapping
Charm: Draco-Lich Claw Charm
Charm: Greater Onyx Charm
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Infernal Fire Prism
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Jasper Ellipsoid
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Onyx Cube
Slotless: Rod of Seven Parts
Slotless: Gregor’s Tome of Focus
Runestone: Empty


So Druids average about 90 points of damage over 10 turns in a max build. How much damage do Wizards do with all the current tokens over 10 turns? I think it's a lot more than 900. Why is it unacceptable for the Druid to even be in the same damage dealing vicinity as the Wizard? The bias towards Druids in these threads gets pretty tiring.


Why don't you be SURE before posting. If you have numbers then fine but don't make nebulous statements as if they're fact.
It's not a bias against Druids it's about game balance. You CONSTANTLY post about maintaining balance and how everyone else's classes tokens are overpowered. Karma.
Please visit my fledgling token store.
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=583&id=247486
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2021 Ultra Rare Almost Final! 1 year 3 months ago #94

Complaining that BiS Druids can do 90 pts a round when you see the damage per round calculations in the mage legendary topic is laughable. Including Druids fits thematically with the token, it's all divine magic, and doesnt break the game. Does it bump Druids and give primary caster Druids a reason to go for the Druid Legendary? Yes. Does it horribly break Druids? No. How is it a bad thing?
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2021 Ultra Rare Almost Final! 1 year 3 months ago #95

Free action casts of any damage spell from any class are problematic.

They shouldn't be allowed lightly. We all know the huge issue with Rangers and Monks adding their modifiers 2x per round.

If I were to fix this ring, I'd limit Druid use of the ring to 1/room and leave Clerics with unlimited. Kind of a nod to the design of last year's UR ingredients.

I could see taking Druids off altogether, too. I hope they aren't.
"IMHO we like to solve problems here on the forums that are only perceived problems due to a myopic view." -Bob Chasan

My trade list
Do you have Onyx polymorph Potions?
Last edit: by Arnold.
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2021 Ultra Rare Almost Final! 1 year 3 months ago #96

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote: I'm a little surprised that I haven't seen more push back on the Ring of Quick Prayer. Just remember that with Ring of Spell Storing and Crown of expertise, that's a lot of extra spells and is actually superior to the power of the Legendary for Wizards


I haven't run the numbers, but I'm inclined to agree (I guess it depends on how the ranged stuff shakes out).

A level 1 spell as a FA each round in the Ring Slot might be better for many wizards than the current legendary.


the legendary makes it better though, wait wizads are on the ring?
--
macXdmg
Monk of the Painda Order
Bard of the College of Sick Beats
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