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TOPIC: 2021 Ultra Rare Almost Final!

2021 Ultra Rare Almost Final! 1 year 4 months ago #133

Jeff Martin wrote:

Fiddy wrote: How is this?


Please no. Please don't nerf it for the Clerics it was originally intended for, just to keep the Druids on it.


How is this?

[/quote]

I like this version better, because it allows you to save resources for later in the game.
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2021 Ultra Rare Almost Final! 1 year 4 months ago #134

Jeff Martin wrote:

Fiddy wrote: How is this?


Please no. Please don't nerf it for the Clerics it was originally intended for, just to keep the Druids on it.


How is this?

[/quote]

Jeff, why not leave it in it's original form instead of restrictions like this. The original form isn't much stronger, since the Druid only has five first level spells.
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2021 Ultra Rare Almost Final! 1 year 4 months ago #135

Mike Steele wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I'm a bit worried about the Ring of Quick Prayer, as Free Action spell with full damage modifiers has so far:

a. Never been class locked.
b. Been limited to 1/game (RoSS), or 1/room (Cabal Set)

This token has no frequency limitations.

I'm worried that a BiS Druid who builds towards Polymorph Melee but still has a spell bonus of say, +20 gets to tack on a 28 point Freezing Orb every round for 10 rounds (with charm of spell swapping). I think they might end up outdamaging Fighters or Barbarians (Druids get Keen polymorph for the 19-20 crit range and +5 damage when polymorphed).

Put another way: A BiS melee Fighter/Barbarian will need to be dealing ~30 more points a round than Polymorph/Melee Druid to keep up with a FA 28 point Freezing Orb.

I'll plan to run the numbers on that tomorrow.

My thought would be to do one of:

1. Make the spells that can be cast as a FA healing spells.
2. Make the spells that can be cast as a FA be non-damage spells.
3. Limit the ring to 1/room.
4. Add Wizards to the ring, in which case it's fine as is :P


TL:DR; BiS Poly/Melee Focused Druids can get 200-300 damage over 7-10 rounds of combat by casting Free Action Freezing Orbs. A melee-polymorph focused BiS Druid will do the same damage as a BiS barbarian due to this ring.

As promised!

Here is a BiS Druid building towards Polymorph + Maximizing Level 1 spell casts as a free action with the Free Action ring casting Freezing Orb.

The build has room for all 4 treasure Iouns, and Charm of Avarice.

Important details:
Melee hit 20: With VTD this is auto-hitting on 2+ on d10 vs. Nightmare AC (and most Epic AC, most likely all with Prayer/Bardsong).

Damage while Polymorphed: +47, average damage wheel from Iktomi's: 9.5. Crit range 19-20.

Spell damage: +20, spell swap 7 higher level spells into Freezing Orb.

Expected damage over 10 rounds, using VTD rules:

Melee:
10 rounds * ( 47 poly damage + 9.5 weapon damage ) * ( 0.7 hit chance + 2*0.2 crit chance ) = 621
Free Action Freezing Orbs:
10 casts * ( 8 freezing orb + 20 spell damage) = 280

Druid Total: 901 (931 if you pass skill tests on Freezing Orb)

This Druid also has a healing bonus of +15 (Cavadar will bump to 17), and 4 cure minor and 2 cure light, so they get to dish out:

4*(1+15 cure minor) + 2*(5 or 8 + 15 cure light) = 144 points of healing over the adventure on top of that.




By comparison Trentus the Barbarian has a to-hit of 22, melee damage of +60. 12.83 average weapon damage.

Room 1: 3 rounds * ( 60 + 12.83 ) * ( 0.8 hit chance + 2*0.1 crit chance ) = 218

Room 2, Rage: 3 rounds * ( 60 + 12.83 + 6 ) * ( 0.8 hit chance + 2*0.1 crit chance ) = 236

Room 3, 2nd Rage:
Round 1, 2 - use Fury: 2 * ( 60 + 12.83 + 6 ) * ( 2*0.9 crit chance ) = 284
Round 3, 4 - 2 * ( 60 + 12.83 + 6 ) * ( 0.8 hit chance + 2*0.1 crit chance ) = 158

Barbarian Total: 896




Given that Druids are very versatile, I do not thing it is right that they can choose to build to melee parity with Barbarians, while also being able to choose to build build to at or very near healing parity with Clerics.

Suggestions: Make the free action ring non-damage spells, or healing only spells, or 1/room.




Trentus:
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=561&id=250857&start=0

Druid build:

Dearshul - Destroyer of Worlds
Class: Druid

STR: 34
DEX: 14
CON: 16
INT: 11
WIS: 19
CHA: 15

Melee:
Hit: 20 Damage: 33 AC: 22

Range:
Hit: 2 Damage: 11 AC: 22 Missle AC: 0

Spell:
Damage: 20 Heal: 15 Resist: 0

Saves:
Reflex: 4 Fort: 8 Will: 9

Treasure:
Min: 3 Max: 3

Health: 41

Damage Reduction:
MeleeRangeSpellFireColdShockSonicEldritchPoisonDarkriftSacred
00000000000

Melee Mainhand: Drue’s +5 Baton of Focus
Melee Offhand: Brawler’s Mug (Rare)
Ranged Mainhand: Empty
Ranged Offhand: Empty
Head: Crown of Might
Eyes: Goggles of Instant Analysis
Left Ear: Arcane Earcuff
Right Ear: Earcuff of Orbits
Neck: Iktomi’s Shaper Necklace
Bead: EmptyTorso: Sill’s Anointed Redoubt Mail
Wrist: Bracers of Guided Strike
Hands: Gloves of the Brute
Back: EmptyRing: Ring of the Drake
Ring: Ring of the Eel
Waist: Surtr’s Girdle of Fire Giant Strength
Shirt: Shirt of Focus
Legs: Kilt of Dungeonbane - Strength
Shins: EmptyBoots: Boots of the Four Winds
Figurine: EmptyCharm: Charm of Glory
Charm: Charm of Spell Swapping
Charm: Draco-Lich Claw Charm
Charm: Greater Onyx Charm
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Infernal Fire Prism
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Jasper Ellipsoid
Ioun Stone: Ioun Stone Onyx Cube
Slotless: Rod of Seven Parts
Slotless: Gregor’s Tome of Focus
Runestone: Empty


How is this?


Jeff,

That isn't strong enough to equip, it's not worth a Ring Slot. I think it's all right to give the Druid a nice token. If Matthew were to have done the comparison versus Wizard potential damage, I think you'd see that the Wizard is still well ahead of the Druid as far as damage dealing, even with this Ring in it's former version.

What else do clerics have to equip at UR and under ring? Even watered down, it’s better than what is generally available UR and under wise, unless you’re just going to stack melee damage.
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2021 Ultra Rare Almost Final! 1 year 4 months ago #136

As others have pointed out the text is somewhat confusing around restore spell.

As others have proposed, I think leaving it as the original version and just noting in TokenDB that it does not work with Charm Of Spell Swapping is the best option.

With that said I am in the Druids should get nice things camp.
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2021 Ultra Rare Almost Final! 1 year 4 months ago #137

Jeff Martin wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

How is this?


Please no. Please don't nerf it for the Clerics it was originally intended for, just to keep the Druids on it.


How is this?


HAH, take THAT charm of spell swapping. I like it.
this is not a signature.
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2021 Ultra Rare Almost Final! 1 year 4 months ago #138

OrionW wrote: As others have pointed out the text is somewhat confusing around restore spell.

As others have proposed, I think leaving it as the original version and just noting in TokenDB that it does not work with Charm Of Spell Swapping is the best option.

With that said I am in the Druids should get nice things camp.


+1 Easiest solution
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2021 Ultra Rare Almost Final! 1 year 4 months ago #139

edwin wrote: Restore Power 5/game?


Oops...I am really bad at this...

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2021 Ultra Rare Almost Final! 1 year 4 months ago #140

Jeff Martin wrote:

edwin wrote: Restore Power 5/game?


Oops...I am really bad at this...


This nerfing anything the Druid is associated with is pretty annoying. It's the same thing that happened in 2019 which resulted in the Druid's Legendary being the weakest of any Class Legendary. The Wizard easily deals more Damage than the Druid, even with this Ring in it's original form, and yet somehow it's unacceptable for the Druid to gain in power, unlike every other class. Just like it's fine for the Wizard and Bard to be on the Ring of Power, but for some reason not the Druid.
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2021 Ultra Rare Almost Final! 1 year 4 months ago #141

Mike Steele wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote:

edwin wrote: Restore Power 5/game?


Oops...I am really bad at this...


This nerfing anything the Druid is associated with is pretty annoying. It's the same thing that happened in 2019 which resulted in the Druid's Legendary being the weakest of any Class Legendary. The Wizard easily deals more Damage than the Druid, even with this Ring in it's original form, and yet somehow it's unacceptable for the Druid to gain in power, unlike every other class. Just like it's fine for the Wizard and Bard to be on the Ring of Power, but for some reason not the Druid.


You can't look at this token in a vacuum. You have to consider the fact that Charm of Spell Swapping exists.

Jeff commented how the Wizard necklaces had to start over from square one because it was inadvisable to not consider Mad Evoker's Charm.

CoSS with Ring of Quick Blessing would have allowed for 10 free action damage spells. That's just way too many for any class.

Allowing any class to apply damage modifiers more than once per round leads to balancing issues. As printed, this would still allow this to occur 5x per game.

IMHO, Druids do get to have nice things. This ring is still a very nice option for Druids.
"IMHO we like to solve problems here on the forums that are only perceived problems due to a myopic view." -Bob C

Trades
WTB: Onyx polymorph Potions
Last edit: by Arnold.
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2021 Ultra Rare Almost Final! 1 year 4 months ago #142

Jeff Martin wrote:


I'm okay with 1st level spells (5/game) since that's the number of boxes on the character card.

RP (1/game) means it no longer applies to the +1 RP from the legendary. Is that intentional? If not, easily fixed by removing the "(1/game)"
dmrzzz's trade thread

Yes, my AC is lower than the Wizard's. No regrets!
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2021 Ultra Rare Almost Final! 1 year 4 months ago #143

David Zych wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote:


I'm okay with 1st level spells (5/game) since that's the number of boxes on the character card.

RP (1/game) means it no longer applies to the +1 RP from the legendary. Is that intentional? If not, easily fixed by removing the "(1/game)"


You could mention in tokendb that it works for natural number of restore power uses, just doesn’t give extra.
--
macXdmg
Monk of the Painda Order
Bard of the College of Sick Beats
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2021 Ultra Rare Almost Final! 1 year 4 months ago #144

macxdmg wrote:

David Zych wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote:


I'm okay with 1st level spells (5/game) since that's the number of boxes on the character card.

RP (1/game) means it no longer applies to the +1 RP from the legendary. Is that intentional? If not, easily fixed by removing the "(1/game)"


You could mention in tokendb that it works for natural number of restore power uses, just doesn’t give extra.


Or just state "Restore Power is a free action" to make it apply to however many instances the character may have.
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