TOPIC: 2021 Ultra Rare Feedback Part Two

dave romanin wrote: I may be wrong, as I am fairly new but this group of UR and the UR from 2020 seem like power creep compared to older years offerings.

If we are not careful, nightmare will be too easy and a sixth level of difficulty will be called for...

Nightmare is already easy to clear with 2-3 players having UR and 1-3 relic tokens. Epic just gets pushed up higher as power creep continues.

Kirk Bauer wrote: Boots of the Sweetwoods are WAY too powerful in my opinion, like Relic-level power. Consider that they are equivalent to your typical UR in the neck slot, which is considered the strongest slot. Especially with the odd starting values for most stats, I would suggest making them +2 to CON and +2 to DEX and it would still make them desirable.

As further argument for my point here: Boots of Might have always been pretty popular and they are only +2 CON. Mithral boots are +3 to DEX. Yes I know they are both part of sets, but I don't think that makes up for +3 or +4 more stat changes.

Unless boots are going to be the new neck slot tone down this token.

Just put it back to a necklace and it's fine.

dave romanin wrote: I may be wrong, as I am fairly new but this group of UR and the UR from 2020 seem like power creep compared to older years offerings.

If we are not careful, nightmare will be too easy and a sixth level of difficulty will be called for...

This discussion happens every year. Welcome to the forums.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: Boots of the Sweetwoods are WAY too powerful in my opinion, like Relic-level power. Consider that they are equivalent to your typical UR in the neck slot, which is considered the strongest slot. Especially with the odd starting values for most stats, I would suggest making them +2 to CON and +2 to DEX and it would still make them desirable.

As further argument for my point here: Boots of Might have always been pretty popular and they are only +2 CON. Mithral boots are +3 to DEX. Yes I know they are both part of sets, but I don't think that makes up for +3 or +4 more stat changes.

Unless boots are going to be the new neck slot tone down this token.

Just put it back to a necklace and it's fine.

+1

I really liked the Sweetwoods necklace. It seemed like an automatic choice for defensive build paladins who's legendary was a sword and bards who are generally more defensively built and who's legendary was an instrument.

Changing it to boots seems to remove the design purpose of having a strong neck option for non STR builds for players not pursuing the class neck path, or those classes without a neck path.

Boots of the Sweetwoods

If feel like there should be a boots UR this year, I would much prefer something only arguably broken rather than obviously broken, like Boots of Soaring: Potion of Leaping Attack language 1/room. As this is the transmute, change the transmute to Stu-pendous, and just print Sweetwoods in 2022 as it's *not* necessary to have everything right now.

As neck slot, still would push out until 2022 because I have some patience for tokens, including tokens I would play a lot with. If hunting around for another slot, waist might be one of the few places for something so massive in terms of bonuses. Legs would work, except it should be obvious what will happen if moved to legs.

Cranston's Helpful Hat

Let's say a head slot item gave +3 damage to whatever Ranged means. That's something I'd run in builds, keeping in mind that I can easily put URs or better in every slot. Now, I probably wouldn't wizard this until it was clear what spells were affected by it, but it might even wizard over Crown of Expertise or whatever. That's with zero other ability.

Let's suppose a second eye slot isn't better than a head slot, so there's a reason to give another ability. In character for head would be something like +2 Will saves. There are times I'm tempted to run a rare in the head slot just for Will saves, though Charm slots are so cheap [sic] these days that probably do Charming Crown instead.

If want to get more helpful and arguably broken, Cranston's Lucky Hat as part of Lucky set with +2 saves, but I'm sure that's gilding the lily a bit much and distracting from the honor. Continuing to muse on how to make more OP URs that at least try to pretend not to be, Cranston's Helpful Hat: +1 Ioun Stone slot, +1 Eyes slot, that's it, just a free Platinum upgrade ... so to speak.

Ring of Sacrifice

I would push this a year (at least). What do clerics and fighters have in common that could be pushed in the Year of C/F/W? Armor. What makes clerics sad and maybe a fighter or two? Straining for Thor. Maybe it's ludicrous to propose Mutable Armor: AC +6, As Any Set w/ Armor, +4 Dex, Cleric/Fighters. So, essentially +8 AC, more Thor-y, don't lose any set bonus for a set that includes armor so you can still get your Redoubt or Templar or Lucky or whatever bonus.

I liked Cranston's with the +2 ranged to hit better than this version, but that's because my monk is trying to get +ranged hit up for benrow's.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Raven wrote: Nightshade’s +2 Obsidian Throwing Dagger?!

Obsidian? Not Saphire?

Nightshade's +2 sapphire inlaid assassination dagger!

No, wait: Nightshade’s +2 sapphire inlaid obsidian assassination stiletto!

Seriously, tho...

I agree with folks who say simplest is best.
Just getting the Nightshade Sneak-attack Doubling power reprinted is fantastic. A throwable sneak attack weapon is icing on the cake.
It’s okay to drop the damage wheel to normal dagger levels. It’s okay to leave off the special Dagger symbol (tho I really like the symbol). It’s okay if we don’t include First-Round sneak... the extra text would clutter the token, and there’s plenty of ways to get around the delay (even at the rare level). It’ll still be good enough that Rogues (even ones who already have the Original Nightshade Shortsword) will want to PYP it.

Btw, my own personal favorite for name would be:

Nightshade’s +2 Throwing Knife

simple, & to the point. Plus I like the alliteration.
(And if I was in charge of graphics, I’d give it a sapphire blue hilt, instead of purple.

Raven wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Raven wrote: Nightshade’s +2 Obsidian Throwing Dagger?!

Obsidian? Not Saphire?

Nightshade's +2 sapphire inlaid assassination dagger!

No, wait: Nightshade’s +2 sapphire inlaid obsidian assassination stiletto!

Seriously, tho...

I agree with folks who say simplest is best.
Just getting the Nightshade Sneak-attack Doubling power reprinted is fantastic. A throwable sneak attack weapon is icing on the cake.
It’s okay to drop the damage wheel to normal dagger levels. It’s okay to leave off the special Dagger symbol (tho I really like the symbol). It’s okay if we don’t include First-Round sneak... the extra text would clutter the token, and there’s plenty of ways to get around the delay (even at the rare level). It’ll still be good enough that Rogues (even ones who already have the Original Nightshade Shortsword) will want to PYP it.

Btw, my own personal favorite for name would be:

Nightshade’s +2 Throwing Knife

simple, & to the point. Plus I like the alliteration.
(And if I was in charge of graphics, I’d give it a sapphire blue hilt, instead of purple.

I think the damage wheel is probably OK and the dagger symbol is fine. That's not much of the departure from the short sword.

Having it double sneak damage on a crit and be usable as a crit from melee or sneak puts it at the high end of UR but still probably good since that's all focused on a single combat round/type/etc.

I'd definitely drop the first round sneak.

Nightshade's +2 Throwing Knife has a simple ring to it.

Nightshade's +2 Assassination Dagger would be another option just for a bit more flair in the naming.


Overall I think Rogues are getting a solid revamp of Nightshade's blade

After looking at the Class URs this year, perhaps the Druid and maybe other classes should get another Class UR this year or next. These URs are now designed to be pretty awesome on their own, in the very usable charm slot, and not duplicated in the Relic or Legendary so they stack with them. So the classes this year get a great Class UR and great (probably too great) Relic/Legendary Neck slot tokens that they can use together.

The Druid UR (and I think probably others also, but I haven't checked) has absolutely no usefulness if the Druid has the Relic or Legendary, so ironically (and I guess sadly) the Druid Class UR is more useful to the Wizard than the Druid, because the Wizard can use it but the Druid with the Relic or Legendary can't. Although I'm hoping that if the Druid isn't added to the Spellbook, the Wizard will be removed from the Shaman's Belt. Even so, it would be nice for the Druid (and maybe other classes) to also have a Class Specific UR of similar power to the Class Charms this year that he can use along with his Relic/Legendary.

Or, maybe in the revision phase the Druid Class UR can be revised to have powers that aren't duplicated by the Relic & Legendary and moved to the Charm slot, although that would require a token trade-in and not just tokendb.com revision.

Raven wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Raven wrote: Nightshade’s +2 Obsidian Throwing Dagger?!

Obsidian? Not Saphire?

Nightshade's +2 sapphire inlaid assassination dagger!

No, wait: Nightshade’s +2 sapphire inlaid obsidian assassination stiletto!

Seriously, tho...

I agree with folks who say simplest is best.
Just getting the Nightshade Sneak-attack Doubling power reprinted is fantastic. A throwable sneak attack weapon is icing on the cake.
It’s okay to drop the damage wheel to normal dagger levels. It’s okay to leave off the special Dagger symbol (tho I really like the symbol). It’s okay if we don’t include First-Round sneak... the extra text would clutter the token, and there’s plenty of ways to get around the delay (even at the rare level). It’ll still be good enough that Rogues (even ones who already have the Original Nightshade Shortsword) will want to PYP it.

Btw, my own personal favorite for name would be:

Nightshade’s +2 Throwing Knife

simple, & to the point. Plus I like the alliteration.
(And if I was in charge of graphics, I’d give it a sapphire blue hilt, instead of purple.

+1 Nightshade's +2 Throwing Knife

Keep the special symbol and double on crit - that's what makes it a "Nightshade's" and DM's should already know what the dagger symbol does.

Keep the thrown ability - it gives rogues a great build puzzle to solve between melee, ranged, and hybrid builds depending on how they want to use it.

If necessary, drop the sneak without 1 round delay. Red-build players have access to this ability from a number of tokens in at least two different slots, higher tier players might have relic/legendary also granting this ability. It's cool, but doesn't need to be built into this token.

If thrown, does this count as a ranged attack? Can a Rogue sneak attack with any other thrown weapon without Lenses of Agility/Vital Insight? It's awesome that this can be thrown for a sneak attack, but if it works like all other thrown weapons, with the dagger symbol added, that's enough to make it a Nightshade's.

I love this token as-is, but I'd rather see it toned down than dropped from the set.

I wonder if any other relic+ Rogues are thinking about getting TWO, so that they can throw a second knife for the second sneak attack attempt...

Mike Steele wrote: After looking at the Class URs this year, perhaps the Druid and maybe other classes should get another Class UR this year or next. These URs are now designed to be pretty awesome on their own, in the very usable charm slot, and not duplicated in the Relic or Legendary so they stack with them. So the classes this year get a great Class UR and great (probably too great) Relic/Legendary Neck slot tokens that they can use together.

The Druid UR (and I think probably others also, but I haven't checked) has absolutely no usefulness if the Druid has the Relic or Legendary, so ironically (and I guess sadly) the Druid Class UR is more useful to the Wizard than the Druid, because the Wizard can use it but the Druid with the Relic or Legendary can't. Although I'm hoping that if the Druid isn't added to the Spellbook, the Wizard will be removed from the Shaman's Belt. Even so, it would be nice for the Druid (and maybe other classes) to also have a Class Specific UR of similar power to the Class Charms this year that he can use along with his Relic/Legendary.

Or, maybe in the revision phase the Druid Class UR can be revised to have powers that aren't duplicated by the Relic & Legendary and moved to the Charm slot, although that would require a token trade-in and not just tokendb.com revision.

1. Elf Wizard is arguably the best Polymorphere in the game with Focused Polymorph. It makes no sense to remove an expert Polymorpher from a Polymorph token.

2. The other easy fix to your frustration is just bake the URs from this year into the relics. I support your idea for us to do this so the Relics are not useful with the URs. Great idea. (Currently, they do that. The Wizard Relic says it has Jinn’s powers, so it shouldn’t stack.)