TOPIC: 2021 Cleric Relic & Legendary Feedback

In all honesty I think I was more excited about the your healing spells can do damage version and balancing spell slots for healing vs damage. Current version seems a little meh

Picc wrote: In all honesty I think I was more excited about the your healing spells can do damage version and balancing spell slots for healing vs damage. Current version seems a little meh

I didn’t plan on ever casting the heals as damage the more I thought about it. Maybe my healing isn’t high enough, but I find I’m either using my whole card of spells and it not being enough... or we are playing on too easy of a difficulty and I don’t need to turn my heals into damage because I can just slide to attack.

The more I thought about it, the more the heals to damage just stepped on the role of the Druid too.

This version is probably for the best.

Jeff Martin wrote: Please only include feedback about the Cleric's proposed Relic and Legendary here.

UPDATED:

Holy Smite: Once per game (during a combat and as a free action) the Cleric can call forth from her deity for Divine Intervention to smite a foe. Once this smite is announced, the Cleric makes a combat slide (during normal combat) against any evil monster, and if she hits the following happens depending on the base number slid.

17 or under = all the other characters' weapon tokens are read by the DM (to figure damage) as the best possible result as far as the highest amount of damage. No special effects by the other player's tokens are triggered -- like with a starburst surrounding a number unless that number was also slid naturally. Only the max damage is done...unless the special burst number was naturally slid by the other character(s). Also, any monster can be criticall-ed that round.

18-19 = as above but the critical range is extended to 19-20, and any monster can be critical-ed.

20 = as above but the critical range is extended to 16-20, any monster can be critical-ed that round, and the Cleric is raised to full hit points.

Thanks!

truedungeon.com/files/Transmuted21beta.jpg

Ehh Holy smite isn't a must have ability, basically maxes out damage tokens for the party who hit, I think that might end up being +20 damage, the crits are kinda nice but are based on how well I slide? I think you are over trying here Jeff, maybe just make it simple like Divine Avatar, cleric crits on 16-20 for one room and bypasses immunity to crits just for the cleric.

I think the requirement for having a 1st level healing spell to heal 10 is kinda silly, just say heals all allies for 10 1/game.

I'd rather have left Divine Intervention on either the first or second iteration. Even add a fun negative on rolling a "1".

But I'm glad others have supported the relic >> legendary isn't worth the upgrade as currently printed. All spells as FA (since if you make lvl 0 spells that you might as well just include the one lvl 3 heal) at the cost of the restore spell/power would definitely feel like you have something to upgrade to. I just feel like nothing pushes you to upgrade to the legendary right now. Sorry for repeating myself.

**agree with Endgame that I would never have converted my healing spells to damage.

The more thought I give the current incarnation of the Legendary, the more underwhelmed I become.

Let's assume an Epic run with BiS builds, Here's how I see the rounds for the Cleric likely shaping up:

* Round 1: Bless and Prayer (since on Epic, AC might be high enough that teammates are missing)
* Round 2: Holy Smite (I'm currently assuming that your combat slide is a Standard Action and that the Smite is a Free Action on top of that)
* Round 3: Restore Power and FA Cure Moderate
* Round 4: Restore Spell and FA Cure Moderate

With this being Epic though, a big concern I have is whether I'll be able to hold off on using actions to heal until Round 3. There's a decent chance I'll need to heal sooner, meaning actions provided by the Legendary get pushed off further.

Also note: this doesn't even try to fit in using a FA to trigger the 'heal everyone 10', so hopefully we used that in an earlier room.

I prefer Divine Intervention over Holy Smite, and I really enjoy the idea of turning heals into harm spells because I've play that character in D&D.

Would it help if Divine Intervention was an upgraded form of the relic mass heal, i.e. replacing it rather than in addition to it?

Relic:
cast Lv1-2 as FA (this is the best thing ever please don't change it!)
1/game heal all others 5hp (number subject to change)

Legendary:
cast Lv1-2 as FA (or maybe Lv0-2 as I think Fiddy suggested)
+1 RP, +1 RS
1/game call for Divine Intervention

This is based on the previous draft of Divine Intervention as an unevenly-randomized all +5 / all +10 / all +18 & one raise / all raised and healed. The part I like best (and the part that would entice me to actually craft a legendary rather than stopping at relic) is the overall ~50% chance of getting at least one raise; it won't bother me if the specific healing numbers need further adjustment.

I did in this example reduce the relic mass heal to match the lowest tier of Divine Intervention, so the legendary can never perform worse. That's not an absolute requirement for me personally to be happy, but I consider it a nice design feature.

Also: it's unclear to me whether or not the relic mass heal receives the Cleric's spell +healing bonus (as a pool of course), and also whether it counts as a spell for Linked Shirt of Healing / Key of Healing / etc. At this moment I lean toward Divine Intervention NOT being a spell, and so for parity the relic mass heal also NOT being a spell, so the number-balancing can be done based on fixed values instead of having to take into account "what if the whole party is already kitted to max out Soothe Wounds?" We'll see if this opinion gets me branded as a heretic by my fellow clerics.

David Zych wrote: Would it help if Divine Intervention was an upgraded form of the relic mass heal, i.e. replacing it rather than in addition to it?

Relic:
cast Lv1-2 as FA (this is the best thing ever please don't change it!)
1/game heal all others 5hp (number subject to change)

Legendary:
cast Lv1-2 as FA (or maybe Lv0-2 as I think Fiddy suggested)
+1 RP, +1 RS
1/game call for Divine Intervention

This is based on the previous draft of Divine Intervention as an unevenly-randomized all +5 / all +10 / all +18 & one raise / all raised and healed. The part I like best (and the part that would entice me to actually craft a legendary rather than stopping at relic) is the overall ~50% chance of getting at least one raise; it won't bother me if the specific healing numbers need further adjustment.

I did in this example reduce the relic mass heal to match the lowest tier of Divine Intervention, so the legendary can never perform worse. That's not an absolute requirement for me personally to be happy, but I consider it a nice design feature.

Also: it's unclear to me whether or not the relic mass heal receives the Cleric's spell +healing bonus (as a pool of course), and also whether it counts as a spell for Linked Shirt of Healing / Key of Healing / etc. At this moment I lean toward Divine Intervention NOT being a spell, and so for parity the relic mass heal also NOT being a spell, so the number-balancing can be done based on fixed values instead of having to take into account "what if the whole party is already kitted to max out Soothe Wounds?" We'll see if this opinion gets me branded as a heretic by my fellow clerics.

heretic

I agree the relic is in a good place now and strong. I think that is also the reason the upgrade to legendary doesn’t seem worth it, especially with holy smite instead of divine intervention.

James wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: Please only include feedback about the Cleric's proposed Relic and Legendary here.

UPDATED:

Holy Smite: Once per game (during a combat and as a free action) the Cleric can call forth from her deity for Divine Intervention to smite a foe. Once this smite is announced, the Cleric makes a combat slide (during normal combat) against any evil monster, and if she hits the following happens depending on the base number slid.

17 or under = all the other characters' weapon tokens are read by the DM (to figure damage) as the best possible result as far as the highest amount of damage. No special effects by the other player's tokens are triggered -- like with a starburst surrounding a number unless that number was also slid naturally. Only the max damage is done...unless the special burst number was naturally slid by the other character(s). Also, any monster can be criticall-ed that round.

18-19 = as above but the critical range is extended to 19-20, and any monster can be critical-ed.

20 = as above but the critical range is extended to 16-20, any monster can be critical-ed that round, and the Cleric is raised to full hit points.

Thanks!

truedungeon.com/files/Transmuted21beta.jpg

Ehh Holy smite isn't a must have ability, basically maxes out damage tokens for the party who hit, I think that might end up being +20 damage, the crits are kinda nice but are based on how well I slide? I think you are over trying here Jeff, maybe just make it simple like Divine Avatar, cleric crits on 16-20 for one room and bypasses immunity to crits just for the cleric.

I think the requirement for having a 1st level healing spell to heal 10 is kinda silly, just say heals all allies for 10 1/game.

Being a fairly good slider I may have to switch to running a hammer thumping once per game doomsday Cleric of total destruction.

David Zych wrote: Would it help if Divine Intervention was an upgraded form of the relic mass heal, i.e. replacing it rather than in addition to it?

Relic:
cast Lv1-2 as FA (this is the best thing ever please don't change it!)
1/game heal all others 5hp (number subject to change)

Legendary:
cast Lv1-2 as FA (or maybe Lv0-2 as I think Fiddy suggested)
+1 RP, +1 RS
1/game call for Divine Intervention

This is based on the previous draft of Divine Intervention as an unevenly-randomized all +5 / all +10 / all +18 & one raise / all raised and healed. The part I like best (and the part that would entice me to actually craft a legendary rather than stopping at relic) is the overall ~50% chance of getting at least one raise; it won't bother me if the specific healing numbers need further adjustment.

I did in this example reduce the relic mass heal to match the lowest tier of Divine Intervention, so the legendary can never perform worse. That's not an absolute requirement for me personally to be happy, but I consider it a nice design feature.

Also: it's unclear to me whether or not the relic mass heal receives the Cleric's spell +healing bonus (as a pool of course), and also whether it counts as a spell for Linked Shirt of Healing / Key of Healing / etc. At this moment I lean toward Divine Intervention NOT being a spell, and so for parity the relic mass heal also NOT being a spell, so the number-balancing can be done based on fixed values instead of having to take into account "what if the whole party is already kitted to max out Soothe Wounds?" We'll see if this opinion gets me branded as a heretic by my fellow clerics.

Honestly though, if a party is already kitted out to max Soothe Wounds, would one more spell really make that much difference? This party has clearly made some tradeoffs in order to do that maximizing. No Eldritch Kilts, gave up a Charm slot, I forget what else...

If that was an issue, then you should also hope the extra Restore Spell doesn't get used on Soothe Wounds.

Holy Smite makes an interesting case for Clerics to switch to FoP:Panther.